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Ralph bressler

Alphabetizing bookmarks - 403 views

bookmark alphabet order sort review 20090929

started by Ralph bressler on 22 Mar 08
  • Ralph bressler
    Is it possible to alphabetize bookmarks in the "main" or "list" views?

    If so, how?

    If not ,WHY not? Moving bookmarks around manually in lists is nice if you want a precise order. What if I just want them in alphabetical order?

  • Mah Saito

    I think there is no way for alphabetical order on bookmark title, now. But I'm not sure why do you need that? The bookmark title is usually web title... Do you want to add a keyword before title? If so, it is better to use Tag for it.

  • Ed Brownstein
    One reason I'd like to see it is that I use a RSS feed of my "daily" tag as a bookmarks folder in my browser. An alphabetized list would make it easier to find things. I thought the easy answer was going to be using Lists as they can be arranged manually. But, unfortunately, the rss still is in order of creation date.

    Mah Saito wrote:
    But I'm not sure why do you need that?
  • Joel Liu
    How about allowing the list RSS feed in order of list?
  • anonymous
    I'd have thought the necessity of this function would be clear. After all, it is possible to order bookmarks in the list view, but only through this incredibly awkward "move up/down or to top/bottom" method used on mobile phone versions of websites like iGoogle. There seems to be no point to creating a list other than that you can order it, particularly when you can, as you say, simply tag websites and create similar collections through the filter. Tagging, though, doesn't help you view the bookmarks in any more reasonable an order than they would already be in. Basically, this freezing every retrievable list of bookmarks, excluding the painstakingly hand-crafted ones (that then, in my case, don't show up in the toolbar), in chronological order is a terrible idea, one which makes the entire process of bookmarking almost moot to me. It's a huge oversight on the part of the designers. I don't know if Furl had this kind of functionality, but I know that Diigo needs it, badly.
  • Graham Perrin
    > no point to creating a list other than that you can order it

    Beyond the option (1) of putting a list in order, you can also:

    2) add sections

    3) present it neatly, for example

    4) present it in a printable format that makes explicit the URLs, for example

    5) present it as a slide show, for example (I wouldn't describe that particular show as interesting, but you get the idea).

    There are probably additional points. I don't use lists that often.

    > chronological order is a terrible idea

    Some people prefer that order. When I'm creating a list in a hurry, I usually prefer to have things added to the end of the list.
  • Graham Perrin
    > don't show up in the toolbar

    Let's continue the list/toolbar discussion under your other
    and keep this topic Alphabetizing bookmarks focused on its original subject.
  • The Ravine / Joseph Dunphy

    Graham Perrin wrote:

    > .. > .. don't show up in the toolbar
    > .. Let's continue the list/toolbar discussion under your other ...

    One should know that Mr. Perrin has no official standing with Diigo, and that one is free to ignore his demands - oh, I do mean "suggestions" - despite the impression his imperious tone might have left.

    That having been said, I would feel more than a little uncomfortable with the idea of this feature, because from my point of view, it looks like an accident waiting to happen. I happen to love the idea of my bookmarks appearing in reverse chronological order, because I'm in the process of making something like a blog out of them. I have this uncomfortable image of the screen moving slowly one day, my accidentally hitting the wrong button as a result - this has happened, in the past - and, all of a sudden, shredding my microblog by reshuffling its posts and destroying the context each gives to those near it, being left with no way to repair the damage than by slowly reordering the posts by hand.

    If we could toggle between "alphabetical" and "reverse chronological" order, then I would feel less uncomfortable. I don't mind seeing you order your own bookmarks as you please - they're yours, and that's your business. I'd just hate to see the proposed feature turn into a boobytrap for some of the rest of us.

  • anonymous
    Only because the ridiculous suggestion has been made that I've proposed getting rid of chronological data entirely, I'll clarify that I think this is about as preposterous as, well, not being able to alphabetise things on-the-fly.

    And while I think chronological order is a terrible idea in general, what I did mean is having things always in chronological order. Most of the time, I'd rather see my bookmarks in some order I've put them in, which is often alphabetical.

    > being left with no way to repair the damage than by slowly reordering the posts by hand.

    Golly. It seems you understand why the reordering method Diigo uses is prohibitively primitive.
  • The Ravine / Joseph Dunphy

    Greg Ravn wrote:

    > .. Only because the ridiculous suggestion has been made that I've proposed
    > .. getting rid of chronological data entirely,

    And when, precisely, did somebody say that?

    > .. > .. being left with no way to repair the damage than by slowly
    > .. > .. reordering the posts by hand

    > .. Golly. It seems you understand why the reordering method Diigo uses is
    > .. prohibitively primitive.

    Ah! I see you're fond of quotation out of context. You should talk to our Mr.Perrin. You two will have ever so much to talk about.

    The scenario I described is not one that would unfold with the system working the way it does, at present. It is a scenario that I worry might unfold if a button is put into place that allows one to alphabetize one's posts, without an option being put in place to reverse that action. Meaning that you've just tried to argue that my presentation of a sequence of events in which a carelessly implemented alphabetization option leads to disaster, presents us with an argument in favor of alphabetization.

    I think that's adorable.

  • The Ravine / Joseph Dunphy

    As for your complaint ... watching you turn a comment on its head, like that, leaves no reasonable doubt that you're here to troll, as does the way in which you grab onto any possible excuse to flame. On general principle, I like to see people have choices, even when they're going to make choices that I personally think are stupid. Freedom has to mean the freedom to do something that somebody else thinks is unwise, if it is to mean anything at all.

    That having been said, this choice you've proposed, if you're serious - which I doubt - would only be explicable were one to assume the presence of obsessive compulsive disorder. I don't know of anybody who memorises the title of all of the pages he bookmarks and doubt that I ever will, because if his memory was so phenomenally perfect that he could hold onto that many titles so perfectly that he would not misplace a word, why wouldn't he just memorise the urls as well? What would he need a private bookmark page for?

    As for public bookmarks, again ... what is the point? Two pages can be about radically different subjects, and yet have titles that match on the first few characters. Imagine a library in which no sections existed, all of the books being arranged in alphabetical order, by title. Who would ever go in there? Who would be able to find anything? No. On one's own computer, usually one organises one's own bookmarks, not by alphabetical order, which would anal retentive and pointless, but by creating a shallow hierarchy of subfolders defined by topic, breaking the stack up that way. On a more linear setting like that offered by the Diigo bookmark pages, one uses tags to achieve much the same effect for the visitor.

    The advantage of reverse chronological ordering on a bookmark page is the same as that it offers on any other microblog, or full blog, for that matter - it offers the visitor, on a repeat visit, the freshest material first, reducing the time he spends going over material that he has already seen. I've tried to be a little diplomatic with you - as diplomatic as your obnoxious attitude let me be - but this option would really be an awesomely stupid for a microblogger to implement, one that would drive his traffic away from his public bookmarks, while not helping him any more with the finding of his private bookmarks, that would a judicious use of tagging. This is most unlikely to appeal to any but a handful of users who probably would be well advised to seek therapy, could present a threat to the user base in general should the restore option prove to have a few bugs in it, and would in no real way serve Diigo's bottom line.

    With all of the requests that have had to be put on hold because of manpower limitations, for the staff at Diigo to drop everything to act on this silly request from somebody who is clearly here to create a disruption, anyway, would be foolishness, indeed.

  • anonymous
    Wow. Okay, douchebag, now you've pissed me the fuck off.

    I came here with the intent of providing feedback in order to help improve a new social bookmarking service. I was pissed off, and with good reason, but that was my intent.

    You're harassing me with pointless, idiotic, lengthy replies, filling up my mail inbox with timewasting shit that benefits nobody. And you're calling me a troll. Let it be known that you're the first one to pull out curse words, let it be known that you're the one spewing blatant mistruths about the nature of the softwares in question, and let it be known that you've produced way more text on these simple subjects than I ever thought would be necessary to cover the issues in the first place. Let it also be known that you're inventing problems with the original proposal I made ("add the capability to alphabetise") in order to fuel this obsession you seem to have with my posts.

    You're a troll.

    You "doubt" that I'm serious, with that snooty attitude of yours. You basically call me OCD for wanting different options for retrieving my bookmarks. (To be clear, I don't have to justify my browsing and research habits to some random asshole.) For some reason you make the logical leap to needing to memorize anything, when this is a bleeding bookmarking service-- At this point, I think you're just crazy.

    But it goes on, with you bringing up public bookmarks out of the blue, and then saying some more random crap about it.

    Then you continue with your diatribe about how your precious reverse chronological order ought not be taken away from anybody. As if I ever suggested it should.

    I'm not "clearly here to create a disruption." I'm here to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of what's offered. But thanks to you, this topic has completely been all but derailed from talking about alphabetisation.

    Stop it.

    Now, I'm not going to reply to your specific comment about alphabetisation over in the other thread, because, as Perrin noted, it belongs here in the first place. I will, however, say that you clearly haven't looked very far. I know I've seen it in Delicious's drop-down menus for the actual bookmark navigation interface, but I've lost my login information and am not about to fish it out just to make a screenshot for your satisfaction. I can, however, use five options from a drop-down menu in my Firefox sidebar: "By Last Added," "By Alpha A-Z," "By Site," "By Most Visited," "By Last Visited." You're a goddamn moron.

    Diigo should support alphabetisation. Case closed.
  • The Ravine / Joseph Dunphy

    Greg Ravn wrote:

    > .. filling up my mail inbox

    As the Diigo staff will confirm, I have never sent you so much as a single message. If you wish to maintain that my posts to your two threads, in which you do little other than rant and look for feeble excuses to make personal attacks, have been so numerous as to fill your mailbox, I invite anybody reading this to count them.

    I assume that we all passed first grade math? One doesn't even need to count to ten for this one. So, Greg, go get the help you need. I'll respond to the rest of your gibberish at my leisure. Or not.

    > .. Diigo should support alphabetisation. Case closed.

    It's not like you're somebody who can be reasoned with, and after that last outburst, I don't believe that very many readers are going to need to be convinced that you're an idiot.

  • anonymous
    You have got to be joking.

    I have e-mail notification set on these threads, because I don't come around here browsing the forums.

    I don't know why you're so keen on responding to every little thing I say with misplaced ad-hominem.

    In other words, you, sir, shouldn't be calling anyone else an idiot.

    Alphabetisation, once again, is the topic of this thread.
  • anonymous
  • Joel Liu
    Hi Greg,
    I agree it's better to add an alphabetical order in the list and we'd like to add it . I guess it will help you find bookmarks easily in a list. However, since you will have many bookmarks in "My bookmarks" page, it will be very hard to find bookmarks though alphabetical order, right?
  • anonymous
    > However, since you will have many bookmarks in "My bookmarks" page, it will be very hard to find bookmarks though alphabetical order, right?

    Possibly, depending on your usage. I don't see any reason to not have it, though, particularly if you've incorporated the proper libraries for other portions of the service.

    One way it would be useful on the full "My Bookmarks" view is if you had an extremely high volume of boomarks, but, for example, knew where a bookmark would be in the middle of it but not exactly how to find it through the search - for example, an article on a blog you've only bookmarked a couple times with a title you can't quite remember. If there was a list of "A - B - C - D ..." links at the top to help you page through, an alphabetical sort would make such a bookmark much easier to find.

    This is an extreme case, but (optional) alphabetical sorts for tag/multi-tag or list views would be quite advantageous in just about any instance.
  • pears stve
    Hi Ralph,

    I don't think that there's a way that bookmarks will be alphabetize, based on what I've known.
    But maybe it can be done if it will be given a solution.Like you, I really like to have bookmarks to be alphabetize, so that it would be easy to find.

  • Graham Perrin
    Greg Ravn wrote:

    > … for example … you've only bookmarked a couple times with a … you
    > can't quite remember.

    For me it's very much about not quite remembering the x, y or z of a bookmark. When this happens I usually recall the look and feel (thumbnail) and something abstract about the page, but not the title or keywords.

    If I use Google to search for something that I lost, then can't find the thing, it's easy to forgive Google. Blame the Internet and my poor memory.

    Whenever I can't find something that I actively saved in Diigo, again I blame my memory — but I also wish for improvements to Diigo.

    > an alphabetical sort would make such a bookmark much easier to find.
    > This is an extreme case …

    I wouldn't describe the case as edge or extreme. I suspect that such use cases occur frequently, but that most occurrences simply lead to momentary use of an alternative search engine. FWIW I sometimes use Google to refresh my memory, then that refreshment helps me to rediscover my bookmark in Diigo.

    In an ideal world: I would then improve my Diigo bookmark, to make any future searches for the same thing less roundabout. In the real world: I often lazily leave the bookmark unaltered and find it easier to recall — visualise (thumbnails) — the round trip that included Google or whatever.

    I fully support people's wishes for alphabetical order in certain situations.

    The cases for optionally sorting lists, and search results, seem fairly clear.

    Diigo group members might also wish to sort in a group context, but the value there is debatable. As we can guess neither (a) the date when someone else saved a bookmark, nor (b) their customisation of a bookmark, so there's far less guarantee that sorting by date or title within a group will zoom in on what you want.

  • The Ravine / Joseph Dunphy
    For the record, since the record has seen some tampering since I was last here ...

    I posted some screenshots taken while I was logged into one of my accounts on, showing the pages used for administering my account in their entirety and overlapping the screenshots, so that those viewing them could see that I could not have left anything out; I believe you'll still find at least some of them in my Flickr photostream, two years later. You might notice that this kind of documentation of a claim is something that the unstable and abusive Mr. Ravn did not come close to attempting. He gives you one washed out shot of a little sliver of a corner of a page. One can't even tell from the shot whether or not one is logged into as one is seeing what is shown, and that is deliberate.

    As I recall, offered an alphabetization feature, but not one akin to the one we were discussing. The feature offered was one that would allow a visitor to a user page on to view the bookmarks on that page in alphabetical order, not one that would let the user put his own bookmarks in that order. The alphabetization was an ephemeral thing, that affected nothing but the display the visitor would see during that session. There was no change in data involved, no permanent reshuffling of anything, just a third party's choice of display options.

    Greggie knew that, but went on ranting anyway, because he knew he was dealing with cowards who would give him what he wanted, as insane as it was, if he made enough of a scene. So, he did a little snip here, a little cut there, and counted on your imaginations to fill in the details that weren't there to be seen, and your willingness to be suggestible for the sake of peace. The other thread has since been deleted, along with a few posts on this one, including one of mine in particular. As we're about to see, irresponsible and cowardly moderation would seem to be a Diigo tradition.
  • The Ravine / Joseph Dunphy
    Let's take a look at comment 16, which the mods have deleted from this board. I'm the one who posted it. To put this in perspective, Ravn has started two discussions, attacking Diigo loudly, rudely and insanely in both, and I've made the mistake of publicly defending Diigo. It's a mistake that I'll never repeat. I wrote:

    Mr. Ravn, apparently, just wrote to me a little under two hours ago (on Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:00 PM, US Central time), attempting to post the following comment to one of my blogs, beautifully illustrating why I believe in using comment screening in the process. Out of respect for Diigo's terms of service, I've softened the profanity. The comment reads

    "Greetings, Mr. Dunphy. I hear that Delicious has no alphabetising feature. Is this true? (Of course, you're one of those pu**ies who doesn't let people say things about him without approving it first. Don't worry though, I won't stop harassing you until I find a way to really pi** you off.)"

    There's a word for this. It's called cyberstalking. If I hadn't already broken off communications with Mr.Ravn, I would most certainly be doing so at this point.

    I will be forwarding this note to Diigo's staff with a simple question - Yes or no, does Diigo feel that this is acceptable behavior out of one of their users? When one user announces his attention to harass another user endlessly, sorry, but there is no such thing as being neutral. One either does approve of this sort of behavior, or one does not.

    I have written to Diigo about this incident. We'll see what, if anything, they're willing to do about this. One way or another, we'll learn something about who they are, as a company, and that is always useful information.

    I wasn't going to have to wait very long, as it turned out.
  • The Ravine / Joseph Dunphy
    Ravn, in comment 17, went on being his psychotic self, which makes Joel Liu's remarks in comment 18 all the more memorable. Keep in mind the fact that, at this point, Ravn has announced his intention of committing a crime in response to my defense of Liu's employer. Cyberstalking isn't just obnoxious behavior, it is a legally defined offense in a number of jurisdictions. Let's take a look at what Greg says next.

    Again, I'll soften the profanity, not out of any respect for Diigo at this point, but just because I don't want to give them an excuse to delete this post.

    Lol. As soon as s**t gets lukewarm, you go from being on a first-name basis with me to addressing me formally like this is some sort of public trial.

    Trouble for you is, I'm not one of their users. I'm just on this website, f**king with you because you're a total p**z and you thought you could trade barbs with me in that ridiculous way you do it. I really don't care if they ban me from this little corner of the internets on account of your childish ramblings. I've already proven my point. It's your own d**n fault, and even if I go, everybody here is still gonna recognise how incredibly stupid you really are. And if you wanna keep whining about it, I can keep fucking with you long after they kick me off this spectacularly HTML-enabled forum.

    Really, everybody knows how glad you are that I decided to open up two freely available links on your Diigo profile page. (By the way, that's not "stalking," in the least. It's getting the last word, the right way. Which isn't to say that I couldn't, if you really want the word defined for you first-hand. You need to invest in a dictionary way more than I do. I own more than you've probably ever seen in your pathetic life.) Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to take the easy out of complaining to the administrators that I just won't leave you alone. Gee - seems like a problem you used to have, Ravine!

    Y'know, if you'd just come out and admit that you're a gigantic vulva who argues incessantly without fact-checking jack s**t, and that I've presented incontrovertible evidence that you've been wrong on every issue about which you've insulted my and everybody else's intelligence
    on this forum, I would feel less inclined to get my friends involved in making you recognise the error of your ways. But instead of just crying to Diigo mummy and daddy privately and not even letting me know about it, you had to continue to make a public spectacle of yourself like
    you've got something to prove to your precious readers. Rule #1 of keyboard warriorship: Never, ever make it more valuable for someone to ruin your day than it would be for them to prove their original point, ESPECIALLY when that point has already been proven, time, and time, and time again. Rule #2 is, never care more about your internet friends than the mission at hand.

    So, "Dunphy," I heard Delicious won't alphabetise for you. Is this true? Pissant.

    As I've pointed out, he proved nothing, because he screenshotted nothing but a fragment of a page, as you can still see for yourself - the screenshots are still up and again, notice that he wasn't willing to let you see the whole page. But the mere fact that Ravn was a jerk who though that belligerence was an argument isn't what made this memorable, and worth commenting about, two years later. One runs into idiots like him every day, and seldom remembers their names for long.

    The cowardly response of management is what makes this memorable. Let's take another look at what Liu said, immediately following these last two post, and note that his remarks are still up there:

    "Hi Greg,

    I agree it's better to add an alphabetical order in the list and we'd like to add it . I guess it will help you find bookmarks easily in a list. However, since you will have many bookmarks in "My bookmarks" page, it will be very hard to find bookmarks though alphabetical order, right?"

    You did not misread that. Management's response to a report by a reasonable user reporting a threat of harassment - not an interpretation, but Ravn's own words - that came in response to said user's defense of management's company was to try to give the insane individual threatening him with harassment what he wanted. Then, as if that weren't bad enough, management waited until the news got a little old, went into the records, and selectively deleted portions of it that revealed what they had done.

    No good deed goes unpunished. Liu and Diigo obviously have no idea of what the word "gratitude" means, a point I would soon take up with them. Actually, with Joel.
  • The Ravine / Joseph Dunphy
    I'm looking through my records for the letter I sent, although, to be honest, at 12:45 am my time, I'm not sure of just how motivated I want to be, so I'll give you the reader's digest version of it from memory, and maybe repost the original elsewhere, when I find it, if there still seems to be any point to doing so.

    I had already sent the staff a message reporting Ravn's behavior and citing the terms of the user agreement which he had breached before Joel showed up, and Joel replied by schmoozing with the offending party, who had grossly breached the TOS in both word and spirit in a way that would offend and outrage almost anybody who could function in the real world, while giving the silent treatment to and snubbing the person that the offending party who Ravn had just publicly announced, on Diigo's own board, that he was harassing, in this very discussion. The man's classism was a nice touch, if one really wants to call somebody who acts this way "a man". Remember what he said?

    "I own more than you've probably ever seen in your pathetic life"

    I was infuriated, and rightly so. I expressed my anger in a message to Liu, saying many of the same things you've seen me say here (in different words), and told him that Diigo would no longer be seeing my support or my content, if that was going to be their position. You might notice that my postings taper off abruptly at that point. Ravn was banned from Diigo shortly after that, his profile suddenly vanishing, but I wasn't about to start posting again. I was really disgusted by what I had just seen.

    A few years have passed, and I've come back to see what I can see, and what do I find? Basic functionality is falling apart, and management has, quite swiftly, responded to at least one report of a very seious problem by obscuring the report. The post is still there, it just doesn't show up in the index. That really does seem to be the continuing theme in all of this - cowardice. Rather than face up to unpleasant matters and dealing with them, management has found that it's far easier to just bury the report, and not let people know about the problems, at all.

    I mothballed the Ravine for a while - that's the name of my blog, not a personal nickname. Over the years, I've had a slow, steady stream of users choose to follow me, and that matters to me. It would be pretty arrogant of me to not care about somebody expressing interest in something I do, but I'm not really inclined to do it here, not if this is how management is going to act.

    To Joel, et al. - I really wanted to like you guys, but you just wouldn't let me. You've consistently taken the path of least resistence without concern for your users or your responsibilities on the job, and worst of all, you seem to be OK with that. You never waver in the exercise of your vices. Somebody with a conscience would.

    I'm coming to view a company that I started out feeling warmly toward with genuine loathing, and while I'd be open to feeling otherwise, if the facts were to justify that, I just don't see how they could at this point. Tampering with the record, on the sly, to keep people in later years from seeing how easy it was for you to toss a supporter to the wolves? Granted, we're looking at a fairly wimpy wolf in Ravn's case, more of a feral chihuaha than anything else, but the act remains grotesque, and your ethics seem lacking.

    I find myself inspired by all of this to take a bold action, of sorts, but it isn't the sort of inspiration that speaks well of the muse. You've inspired me to give up on social bookmarking. I've got some old page finds stacked up, and I can write about those for a while, and that's fine, but as for being at all active on Diigo, or even looking for a new social bookmarking service to be active on, I'm thinking that this is maybe a very bad idea. Between Stumbleupon gleefully wiping out years of its users' work on October 24, Ma.gnolia losing its user data because the owner saw no need to keep the tech staff around, Propeller pulling a disappearing act, Simpy being turned into a redirect to the Reuters homepage ... I, for one, am very tired of finding myself looking at the screen and going "Oh, G-d, now what". I'm tired of finding the latest way in which people in this section of the Internet are going to foul up, and really seem proud of the fact that they fouled up.

    Why say "oy!" when one can say "gevalt!"? The accounts are free, and I'm happy to leave them open, but I am done with these games, and wonder how many other people feel the same way. People whose content would have given this service more credibility than it could ever see from the contributions of Ravn and his ilk, ie. the people who you've chosen to deserve. What kind of content is a person like that going to produce, and who is going to want to read it? Questions that you really should be asking yourselves, at this moment, but I kind of doubt you ever will.

    It's been memorable. Later, guys.

    PS. I see Diigo has now sunk to the use of inline advertising. I've also noticed that Internet Explorer has started moving over three times as quickly since I've disabled my Diigo toolbar. You are trying to make this decision an easy one, aren't you?

    I can't believe I ever defended this company or its staff.

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