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Gary Edwards

Open Malaysia: Geneva, Day Five - 0 views

www.openmalaysiablog.com/...geneva-day-five.html

brm geneva iso odf ooxml opendocument openxml

shared by Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08 - Cached
  • We eventually found out that if any changes affected current implementations it would certainly be rejected. This seriously compromised any elegant solutions, and it forced us to be mindful of the "existing corpus of documents" in the wild. I personally don't believe that that should be our problem, but there was a large and vocal voting bloc which would oppose any changes to the spec which would 'break' Ecma 376. This was why appeasing Ecma had to happen. Even though they rushed their Ecma International Standard, and Microsoft took the risk in shipping Microsoft Office 2007 last year, we now have to bear the burden of having to support its limitations. This also means that future maintenance changes would get harder and harder.
Gary Edwards

Microsoft's OOXML limps through ISO meeting - ZDNet UK - 0 views

news.zdnet.co.uk/...0,1000000121,39362112-2,00.htm

brm ecma geneva iso oasis odf ooxml

shared by Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08 - Cached
  • Gary Edwards, former president of the Open Document Foundation, an industry group that promoted ODF but then rejected both approaches and closed itself down in November 2007, said: "Ecma and Oasis are vendor consortia where the rules governing standards specification work favour vendor innovation over the open and transparent interoperability consumers, governments and FLOSS efforts demand... Shutting that door on Ecma OOXML is proving very difficult exactly because the primary and fundamental rule of ISO interoperability requirements has been breached."
Gary Edwards

Sun and Microsoft confirm data center lovechild | The Register - 0 views

www.theregister.co.uk/...sun_microsoft_lab

microsoft server-farms sun viridian

shared by Gary Edwards on 22 Mar 08 - Cached
  • Microsoft has been less offensive to McNealy and Sun ever since it forked over about $2bn to settle disputes, agreed to an interoperability pact and helped chuck Windows on Sun servers. Now the companies plan to expand their mutual admiration society via an Interoperability Center. Sun will send a bunch of servers and storage boxes up to the Redmond-based center. Engineers from both companies will work on testing Microsoft's server software with the gear. We're told that such work could lead to breakthroughs in 64-bit database technology and amazing e-mail servers.
Gary Edwards

OOXML vs ODF: where next for interoperability? | Reg Developer - 0 views

www.regdeveloper.co.uk/...ooxml_vs_odf

foundation iso microsoft odf ooxml w3c

shared by Gary Edwards on 22 Mar 08 - Cached
  • 'A diversion from the real end game – the taking of the internet' Gary Edwards of the Open Document Foundation has a fascinating post on the important of Microsoft Office compatibility to the success of the ISO-approved Open Document formats. It is in places a rare voice of sanity: People continue to insist that if only Microsoft would implement ODF natively in MSOffice, we could all hop on down the yellow brick road, hand in hand, singing kumbaya to beat the band. Sadly, life doesn’t work that way. Wish it did. Sure, Microsoft could implement ODF - but only with the addition of application specific extensions to the current ODF specification … Sun has already made it clear at the OASIS ODF TC that they are not going to compromise (or degrade) the new and innovative features and implementation model of OpenOffice just to be compatible with the existing 550 million MSOffice desktops.
Gary Edwards

Antitrust: Commission imposes € 899 million penalty on Microsoft for non-comp... - 0 views

europa.eu/...pressReleasesAction.do

anti-trust eu microsoft ooxml openxml

shared by Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08 - Cached
  • Antitrust: Commission imposes € 899 million penalty on Microsoft for non-compliance with March 2004 Decision
Gary Edwards

A Savage Journey … ODF at the OOXML BRM « A Frantic Opposition - 0 views

robweird.wordpress.com/...a-savage-journey

brm ecma geneva iso odf ooxml opendocument openxml standards

shared by Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08 - Cached
  • A Savage Journey … ‘Erupting from my vivid nightmares into the retro 80s faded luxury of a five-star hotel in Geneva, the pictures of the first victim reappeared on the wall.  The head of the Brazilian delegation-it’s only a matter of time now. My mind thrashes to disentangle the thrown spaghetti threads of blurred reasoning; who’s next, is it just the heads of delegation they are after, any NB member, P-members only? The fog lifts and it’s worse.  Who is behind this, them or us?  We outnumber them, but maybe their plan is more devious.  Must find Bonky Bob, he’ll know what to do.’ Enough levity for now.  The BRM has held few surprises, other than the rather galling situation where I was forced to publicly toe the INCITS line by the temporary head of delegation, a Microsoft employee, against my better judgement.
Gary Edwards

Calling all black helicopters! This is a red alert. The OpenDocument Foundation suspe... - 0 views

boycottnovell.com/...ndocument-foundation-civil-war

odf ooxml opendocument opendocument-foundation openxml

shared by Gary Edwards on 09 Feb 08 - Cached
  • Be aware that Gary Edwards and Marbux (of the organisation formerly known as “The OpenDocument Foundation” [1, 2]) have begun submitting links to their new site. They use Digg where they post elaborate comments about a decoy, a distraction. They comment on each other’s submissions, which are barely receiving any attention at all. The OpenDocument Foundation’s Web site has meanwhile become a link farm (inactive) with many inbound links. This is not very ordinary. “At times, however, new people are introduced to intervene and create tensions, misunderstandings, and civil wars.”
Gary Edwards

The Case for Harmonization (that IBM will vote against anyway) « A Frantic Op... - 0 views

robweird.wordpress.com/...t-ibm-will-vote-against-anyway

foundation harmonization interop oasis odf ooxml opendocument openxml

shared by Gary Edwards on 09 Feb 08 - Cached
  • The Case for Harmonization (that IBM will vote against anyway) In my recent post, I discussed the case for harmonization, mainly due to trying to portray a more kindly, conciliatory face in the “standards krieg” that I was enjoying so much. I have been forced to take a different tack, in light of being hung out to dry by my more business-focused IBM comrades and the work that the enemy has done in sprucing up the spec. However, as my closest friends know, for me, there are no half-victories, so you can rest assured that I will not settle for this weak “harmonization” compromise. I set out my (and IBM’s) stall some time ago on this, and as those on the Open Document Foundation know, any attempt at harmonization shall be met with swift and final retribution.  They were ejected from the odf-coven just days after their impudence. I have baited my trap, inviting this “harmonization” in my lair (the OASIS ODF TC) where I can bog them down in a morass of incompetence, bickering and politicking, so no new standard is ever ratified.  I have already been practicing for this, as you can see, by the ODF 1.1 and 1.2 specs.
Gary Edwards

Wizard of ODF: The Foundation on Interop and the List Proposal Vote Deadline - 0 views

www.oasis-open.org/...msg00040.html

anti-trust ecis foundation odf ooxml opendocument openxml

shared by Gary Edwards on 09 Feb 08 - Cached
  • Oh, my. Both IBM and Sun voted for the proposal that broke the Foundation's plugin that was going to add full-fidelity native ODF file support to Microsoft Office. So it's sounding to me like at least two of the TC members who voted for the Sun/KOffice proposal didn't check in with the ECIS lawyer before they broke interoperability with Microsoft Office. Do you think Microsoft won't use this evidence in the DG Competition antitrust proceeding, Michael? Let's see, you guys are prosecuting Microsoft for not supporting ODF in Microsoft Office while you block Microsoft Office from supporting ODF. Yeah, I think DG Competition is going to hear about this one from Microsoft. They'll probably hear about what you said about compatibility being a trade off too. Oh, yeah. Microsoft's lawyers are going to love this. Look at the ECIS public statement about interoperability's importance.
Gary Edwards

Wizard of ODF: Proposal to amend TC charter, re interoperability with non-conformant ap - 0 views

www.oasis-open.org/...msg00022.html

harmonization interop interoperability oasis odf ooxml opendocument

shared by Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08 - Cached
  • 7. it must provide all feasible functionality required to suppport full fidelity conversions from and to existing office document binary file formats.
Gary Edwards

Wizard of ODF: Interoperability barriers and the List Proposal Vote Deadline on Wednesday - 0 views

www.oasis-open.org/...msg00039.html

harmonization interop interoperability odf ooxml opendocment openxml

shared by Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08 - Cached
  • this TC does not have the final word on what goes into the ODF 1.2 spec. There is still the OASIS vote, the JTC-1 vote, and the ISO final ballot, with a few other stops along the way. There is also the market's response to what this TC does. Given that no one on this TC has objected to my considerable efforts to raise public concerns with Microsoft's ISO submission and some on this TC have lambasted Microsoft for creating interoperability barriers, why should this TC's members consider themselves exempt from warnings that they have just fallen into precisely the kind of behavior we routinely criticize when it's Microsoft that creates the interoperability barriers. Especially when it's the end users who will pay the price of the non-interoperability?
Gary Edwards

A Fresh Cup » About - 0 views

afreshcup.com/?page_id=2

shared by Gary Edwards on 09 Feb 08 - Cached
  • Then I got fed up with Microsoft. It took about fifteen years, but I finally reached the point where, no matter how good some of their software was, or how well-meaning some of the rank and file employees were, I could no longer stomach the corporate policies. You can read more about that in my posts What’s Going On Here?,  The Rest of the Story, and The Examined Software Life. Certainly, reasonable people can disagree on these things, but for me, working with Microsoft tools and technologies is no longer an option. So I quit.
    • Gary Edwards
      Gary Edwards on 09 Feb 08
       
      Same here. For me the 1996 JavaONE Conference was a great reunion of former Windows - Microsoft Developer Network members i had not seen since the old OS2-Windows Conference days. It was clear to me then that much of the Internet wave surge back then was charged by developers and investors dissaffected with Microsoft and the Windows monopoly. What people at that first JavaONE Confernece were looking for was a means to convert the Interent into a full fledged computational platform; augmenting the ubiquitous communications, access and exchange grid with web ready applications. They sought an alternative to Windows platform development. One of the more prominent memes back then was provided by the rather small but vocal FOSS developers community attending the conference. They had this strong belief that much of the value of the Internet was captured in this phrase, "Owned by none, used by all". For anyone familiar with the abusive monopolist's tactics, the meme was quite resonant. So much so that the openness of Java became a serious issue dooging Sun for years. I've always thought Sun paid an iincredible price for the reprehensible business practices of Microsoft. In early times, Java would have rode the same wave of application developer take up that Windows enjoyed in the early 90's. The monopolist however had changed the rules forever. And that's actually a good thing. Thanks for writing about your journey Mike. I'm looking forward to your blogervations.
  • Perry Branch on 09 Feb 08
     
    Not specific to Document formatting, but a huge example of Microsoft vs. "The right thing". Read the three articles linked in the post.
  • Perry Branch on 09 Feb 08
     
    Talk about "Switch", this is incredible. Very interesting fellow and a good
Gary Edwards

Harmonizing ODF and OOXML using NameSpaces | Tim Bray's Thought Experiment - 0 views

www.tbray.org/...Office-XML

bray florian-reuter namespaces odf ooxml opendocument openxml

shared by Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08 - Cached
  • First, what if Microsoft really is doing the right thing? Second, how can we avoid having two incompatible file formats? [Update: There’s been a lot of reaction to this piece, and I addressed some of those points here.]
  • On the technology side, the two formats are really more alike than they are different. But, there are differences: O12X’s design center, Microsoft has said repeatedly, is capturing the exact semantics of the billions of existing Microsoft Office documents. ODF’s design center is general-purpose reusability, and leveraging existing standards like SVG and MathML and so on.
    • Gary Edwards
      Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08
       
      OOXML, or to put it more accurately "O12X" as Tim suggests, is designed to capture the exact semantics of MSOffice 12. In fact, OOXML is an XML encoding of the MSOffice 12 in-memory-binary-representation dump. When it comes to representing older versions of MSOffice documents, OOXML must use legacy compatibility settings" to capture the semantics. And it's not an exacting science to say the least. The thing is, OpenOffice ODF uses the same technique resulting in application specific ODF documents with over 150 un docuemnted, unspecified "compatibility settings". After years of requests from the OASIS ODF Technical Committee to document these application specific settings, Sun has yet to provide any kind of response. And this kills ODF interoperability. Especially concerning KOffice. There is also the issue of OASIS ODF high-jacked namespaces. When ODF applications reference a namespace, the actual URL is high-jacked with http://oasis-open.org/???? replacing the proper namespace of http://W3C.org/???? This high-jacking impacts the oDF reuse of important W3C technologies such as XForms, SVG, MathML, and SMiL. So where's the problem you ask? Well, when a developer imports or tries to process an OpenOffice ODF document, they rely on say the W3C XForms specification for their understanding. OpenOffice however seriously constrains the implementation of XForms, SVG, MathML, RDFa and RDF/XML. This should be reflected in the new namespace. However, if you follow the high-jacked URL, you'll find that there is nothing there. There is no specification describing how OpenOffice implements XForms in ODF! This breaks developer libraries, breaks ODF interoperability between ODF applications, and, offends the W3C to no end. So i think it might be fair to say that at this point, neither ODF or OOXML have come close to fulfilling their design objectives.
  • The capabilities of ODF and O12X are essentially identical for all this basic stuff. So why in the flaming hell does the world need two incompatible formats to express it? The answer, obviously, is, “it doesn’t”.
    • Gary Edwards
      Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08
       
      Exactly!! Except for one thing that Tim misses: the presentation layers of both ODF and OOXML are application specific. It is also the application specific nature of OpenOffice ODF presnetation layer that prevents interoperability with KOffice ODF! There is near zero interop between OpenOffice and KOffice, and KOffice has been a contributing member of the OASIS ODF TC for FIVE YEARS! It's the presentation layer Tim. ODF and OOXML are application specific formats because their presentation layers are woefully applicaiton specific and entirely reflective of each applications layout engine and feature set implementation model. I often imagine what ODF would be like if back in 2001, Sun had chosen to implement CSS as the OpenOffice presentation layer instead of the quirky but innovative, and 100% application specific automatic-styles presentation layer we now see in ODF. Unlike ODF's "automatic-styles", CSS is a totally application independent presentation model prized exactly for it's universal interoperability!
  • ...1 more annotation...
  • The ideal outcome would be a common shared office-XML dialect for the basics—and it should be ODF (or a subset), since that’s been designed and debugged—then another extended vocabulary to support Microsoft features , whether they’re cool new whizzy features or mouldy old legacy features (XML Namespaces are designed to support exactly this kind of thing). That way, if you stayed with the basic stuff you’d never need to worry about software lock-in; the difference between portable and proprietary would be crystal-clear. And, for the basic stuff that everybody uses, there’d be only one set of tags. This outcome is technically feasible. Who could possibly be against it?
    • Gary Edwards
      Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08
       
      Bingo! ODF and OOXML should strip off the application specific complexities and seek a neutral generic XML representation of basic document structures common to ALL documents. Then, use the XML NameSpace mechanism to extend (with proper descriptions) the generic to include the volumes of application specific features that now fill each format. One thing i disagree with Tim about. And that's that the interop of ODF and OOXML is hopelessly broken. The OpenDocument Foundation tried for over a year to close the compatibility gap between ODF and MSOffice binary - xml documents. The OASIS ODF TC would have none of it. IBM and Sun are set on a harsh course of highly disruptive and costly rip-out-and-replace of MSOffice based on government mandates for ODF. There is no offer of compromise to be had. On the Microsoft side, even if they did want to compromise (a big IF), there is that problem of over 550 million MSOffice workgroup-workflow desktops to contend with. The thing is, the only way to harmonize, merge, convert or translate between two application specific formats is to actually harmonize the applications themselves. While the generic subset is a worthy goal, the process would be fraught with real world concerns that the existing application workflows are not disrupted. My proposal? Demand that ODF and OOXML application vendors provide format options for PDF, and the W3C's family of formats: (X)HTML5, (X)HTML - CSS, and CDF (XHTML-CSS-XForms-SVG-SMil-MathML). That will do it. We might never see the quality of interoperability we had hoped for in a desktop application to application scenario. But we can and should fully expect high quality interop at the higher level of the Web. You can convert an application specific format to a generic like CDF. By setting up conversion channels to the same CDF profile within MSOffice, OpenOffice, KOffice, Symphony, and Google Docs, we can achieve the universal interoperabil
Gary Edwards

Compound Document Formats Group Charter - 0 views

www.w3.org/...charter.html

cdf da-vinci foundation opendocument w3c

shared by Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08 - Cached
  • be widely implementable in browsers and authoring tools
Gary Edwards

The future of XML - 0 views

www.ibm.com/...x-xml2008prevw.html

odf ooxml xhtml xml

shared by Gary Edwards on 07 Mar 08 - Cached
  • Of course, the most important conversion isn't from OpenDoc to OOXML or vice versa: it's a down conversion from either OpenDoc or OOXML to XHTML. The HTML exporters in OpenOffice and Microsoft Office are uniformly atrocious. Look for third-party developers to pick up the slack. Most important, look for individual corporate developers and webmasters to begin publishing custom templates for their sites. This will enable regular folks to write in Microsoft Word as they're accustomed to doing and then upload their musings straight into the local content-management system. Editing and reviewing tools can be built right in. Because machines generate all the markup (the humans see the GUI interface they're used to), well-formedness will be a freebie. The majority of the Web won't be well-formed by the end of 2008, but a larger percentage will be than today.
Graham Perrin

Details about [opendocument] - 0 views

www.fileformat.info/...internal.htm

ODF OpenDocument formats

shared by Graham Perrin on 25 Jul 09 - Cached
Graham Perrin

ODF versus OOXML: Don't forget about HTML! - O'Reilly XML Blog - 0 views

www.oreillynet.com/...ersus_ooxml_dont_forget_a.html

ODF OOXML PDF HTML

shared by Graham Perrin on 28 Jul 09 - Cached
  • Don't forget about HTML
  • February 25, 2007
  • HTML’s potential and actual suitability for much document interchange
  • ...27 more annotations...
  • HTML is the format to consider first
  • validated, standards compliant XHTML in particular
  • HTML at one end (simple WP documents)
  • PDF at the other end (full page fidility but read-only)
  • HTML, ODF, OOXML, PDF
  • W3C versus ISO
  • Lie adopts an extreme view towards overlap of standards:
  • overlap at all brings nothing but misery and bloat.
  • The next dodgy detail is to make blanket comparisons between HTML and ODF/OOXML.
  • ODF and OOXML deal with many issues that HTML/CSS simply does not.
  • the W3C argument might be to say that every part should have a URL
  • a strange theory that MS wants ODF and OOXML to both fail
  • being pro-ODF does not mean you have have to be anti-OOXML
  • HTML is the format ｏｆ choice for interchange of simple documents
  • ODF will evolve to be the format of choice for more complicated documents
  • OOXML is the format of choice for full-fidelity dumps from MS Office
  • PDF is the format of choice for non-editable page-faithful documents
  • all have overlap
  • we need to to encourage a rich library of standard technologies,
  • widely deployed,
  • free,
  • unencumbered,
  • explicit,
  • awareness of when each is appropriate
  • an adequate set of profiles and profile validators
  • using ISO Schematron
  • Plurality
Gary Edwards

Open XML blogging in 2007 - Doug Mahugh - Site Home - MSDN Blogs - 0 views

blogs.msdn.com/...open-xml-blogging-in-2007.aspx

hypocrisy ODF odf-civil-war OOXML cloud-computing

shared by Gary Edwards on 22 Dec 10 - No Cached
  • Gary Edwards on 22 Dec 10
     
    At the height of the Document Wars, Doug Mahugh posted this year end, month to month, blow by blow list of blog assaults. I stumbled upon Doug's collection following up on a recent (December 20th, 2010) eMail comment from Karl.  Karl had been reading the infamous "Hypocrisy 101" blog written by Jesper Lundstocholm:  http://bit.ly/hgCVLV Recently i was researching cloud-computing, following the USA Federal Government dictate that cloud-computing initiatives should get top priority first-consideration for all government agency purchases.  The market is worth about $8 Billion, with Microsoft BPOS and Google Apps totally dominating contract decisions in the early going.  The loser looks to be IBM Lotus Notes since they seem to have held most of systems contracts. So what does this have to do with Hypocrisy 101? To stop Microsoft BPOS, IBM had to get a government mandate for ODF and NOT OOXML.  The reason is now clear.  Microsoft BPOS is dominating the early rounds of government cloud-computing contracts because BPOS is "compatible" with the legacy MSOffice desktop productivity environment.  Lotus symphony is not.  Nor is OpenOffice or any other ODF Office Suite.   This compatibility between BPOS and legacy MSOffice productivity environments means less disruption and re engineering of business process costs as governments make the generational shift from desktop "client/server" productivity to a Web productivity platform - otherwise known as "cloud-computing". IMHO, neither ODF or OOXML were designed for this cloud-computing :: Web productivity platform future.  The "Web" aspect of cloud-computing means that HTML-HTTP-JavaScript technologies will prevail in this new world of cloud-computing.  It's difficult, but not impossible, to convert ODF and OOXML to HTML+ (HTML5, CSS3, Canvas/SVG, JavaScript).  This broad difficulty means that cloud-computing does not have a highly compatible productivity authoring environment designed to meet the transition needs
Gary Edwards

No REST in CMIS » Untangled by Roy Fielding - 0 views

roy.gbiv.com/...no-rest-in-cmis

RESt CMIS document-models Sursen

shared by Gary Edwards on 29 Dec 10 - No Cached
  • Gary Edwards on 29 Dec 10
     
    REST creator Roy Fielding weighs in on CMIS, the Content Management Interoperability Services standard proposed by pay-to-play OASIS members and big RDBMS vendors; EMC, IBM and Microsoft.  Note, Roy works for Day Software, which has been acquired by Adobe. The CMIS proposal is suspiciously similar to the Sursen UOML OASIS Standard that ISO rejected!!!  excerpt: CMIS is a thin veneer on RDBMS-based data repositories that provides a data model for document-like objects within filesystem-like folders, basic file versioning, and access via SQL queries and local object references. It is exactly the kind of document model one would expect within a legacy document management system that is backed by a large relational database and authored via Microsoft Office applications. No surprise, given the sponsors, and there are plenty of good reasons why folks would want to support such data models.
Gary Edwards

Official Google Blog: Pagination comes to Google Docs - 0 views

googleblog.blogspot.com/...tion-comes-to-google-docs.html

shared by Gary Edwards on 12 Apr 11 - No Cached
  • Gary Edwards on 12 Apr 11
     
    Although you need Chrome for the new Google Docs pagination feature, the key here is that gDocs now supports the CSS3 pagination module!   excerpt: Today, we're doing another first for web browsers by adding a classic word processing feature-pagination, the ability to see visual pages on your screen. We're also using pagination and some of Chrome's capabilities to improve how printing works in Google Docs. Native Printing: Pagination also changes what's possible with printing in modern browsers. We've worked closely with the Chrome team to implement a recent web standard, CSS3, so we can support a feature called native printing. Before, if you wanted to print your document we'd need to first convert it into a PDF, which you would then need to open and print yourself. With native printing, you can print directly from your browser and the printed document will always exactly match what you see on your screen.
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