I wish diigo developers to adopt vote feature, like delicious or digg. This feature will give more informations about favorite links. And I think this function is so important for social bookmarking site.
I hope my suggestion is helpful to diigo developers. - Kim
Agree. voting should be done in a meaningful way. We're giving some thought to it - thus, I said, if we do it, hopefully it will be in a more meaningful way :-)
I gave this some thought overnight and wonder if this might not be a solution. The idea I had would be to be able to rate the tags for a site. So if I have tags - education technology pedagogy "social constructivism" - I could perhaps rate them as - education 4 technology 2 pedagogy 4 "social constructivism" 4. This would convey to the user my opinions of the value of the site with regard to the tags I have allocated.
This solution does ultimately not resolve my concerns with regard to the numerical assessment of sites, but does represent a workable compromise.
Another concern I had though, is that of "rating flooding". Let's assume that 2000 employees from a company or University all join and rate their site as 5/5. This is a gross misuse of the rating concept, though of course all 2000 could say great things in their comments.
Aaarrggghhh! maggie_diigo wrote: > Agree. voting should be done in a meaningful way. We're giving some thought to it - thus, I said, if we do it, hopefully it will be in a more meaningful way :-)
I agree that vote feauture will be a great one in the Diigo forum, nice to know that Diigo developers are already working in it. Also agree the loyola comments about rating systems, there is a 'popularism' way of interpreting interestingness in the social web, but this is the way how folksonomies work.
But sometimes i miss some kind of personal rating system too. To solve this i use the tag ! or !! if i find something really interesting to me. So if i want to find something interesting (or at least interesting to me in a time) about a topic, i just have to use its tag in combination with the ! tag. Like, for example, searching "design + !" will return all the websites with great designs.
So, at least, personal rating is being usefull to me, and can also be interesting to see what other tagged as ! in that topic. While, of course, the results can not match my expectations, well, this is part of the social web, i'll be able to see what's interesting to others and see if there is someone with very common interests.
I'm not interested in 1 to 5 rating instead of just to be able to mark a web as 'important' in adition to tag it and mark it as unread.
Here in Diigo: I'm 99% sure that 'thumbs up' and thumbs down' are never misinterpreted.
However: I do wonder whether rankings, ratings, measures *ultimately* add significant *long term* value to
* we users of Diigo
* service providers.
I wonder what makes something buzzy or hot http://www.diigo.com/buzz/hot but I don't expect an answer; making explicit the criteria could lead to misuse/abuse ;)
In other groups in which I participate, there was previously a very user-friendly star rating system (AFAIR, click any one of five stars to rate at that point in the scale), I enjoyed using that system, and I used it religiously. However: when I looked behind the scenes at how the ratings were used, it was clear that use was negligible. Interestingly, when the entire forum system was improved, the developers quietly replaced the five star sub-system with: no rating system. (There's a flag, which fits perfectly with the flagging standard in IMAP, and a flag is all I need.) The result of this loss? The outcry? AFAIR, not a whisper of discontent. And this was in an extremely active group of forums.
However: if someone had polled the masses on whether ratings should be deprecated, before the decision was made, I'm sure that there would have been an outcry ;)
The reality, as I see it: people prefer to discuss, comment.
Last, but not least - and I prepare to be literally (in words) assaulted on this point (I don't expect agreement) - I treat rating systems as one of those things that a) makes the individual feel good, or allows quiet venting steam, but b) has little positive affect on the 'life' of a bookmark. Or the life of a discussion. Etc.. In a word, I often (not always) treat ratings as:
* clutter.
(Food for thought: does that word 'clutter', that cat amongst the pigeons, make you wish to (a) press a thumbs down icon, or (b) express yourself in words?)
And on that provocative note (!) I'll leave this topic and, and nudge back to the foreground the topic that deserves most current attention: Joel's invitation to discuss 'read later'…
As a long time Ma.gnolia user I have some experience using a 5 star system. My experience tells me that the star system is quite meaningless, and causes confusion. I think the first question that comes up is, "Why did I bother saving something if it was only 1 star?". I have talked to a number of people who would use the stars as a way to further organize bookmarks. That said...
I do like the idea of a thumbs up/thumbs down button like is available in groups. What I like even more is the Like option on Friendfeed. It is a nice simple way to say that the bookmark was worthwhile. Why even bother with the negative connotation of the Thumbs down. One of the things that I think is really nice about Ma.gnolia is the Thanks feature. It really is cool to get an e-mail saying thanks when someone likes something you have published. It is especially nice when it is something that you didn't think would have broad appeal, lets you know someone is watching and liking what they are seeing.
I think a voting system should be as simple as possible. Let me say I like the bookmark, let me say thanks to someone for sharing it.
Maggie Tsai wrote: > Agree. voting should be done in a meaningful way. We're giving some thought to it - thus, I said, if we do it, hopefully it will be in a more meaningful way :-)
I also find the rating systems to not be very useful, or at least the solicited rating systems that require a human to "vote". These systems are too prone to manipulation, wrought with inconsistencies to what is perceived as important (do I thumb up because I laughed or because it gave me information) and do not collect very meaningful data points.
I think the number of times viewed, i.e. Youtube vids or the number of times saved, i.e. Delicious bookmarks, to be a much more meaningful way of defining what is "hot and what is not." After all, why view it, why save it if it isn't interesting. These too, of course are also subject to the occasional nefarious manipulations, but is tempered by the fact that the legitimate ones are shared amongst peers and therefore the cream will rise to the top, as they say.
Couple of other cool ideas for users to get at what is relevant to them. Sort order lists based on personal relevancy. If you perform a search, trickle to the top the bookmarks that have been marked by your friends and ones that match your tag roll the best. Create a system of weighting the bookmarks based on personal criteria and display those closer to the top.
Give me 10 relevant bookmarks over a million random bookmarks any day!!! Why do you think Google has won the day in search?
Yes, and nearly all of them only have 1 thumb, no more. Considering you can give your own bookmark a thumb up, is that really saying much?
Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing a rating system and saying it has no purpose, but I am trying to understand why it is that this one is not being utilized.
I think, and I believe you agree with this Graham, the better indicator of interest/relevancy and what users hold valuable is better reflected through their annotations they add to web pages.
I think those are all logical and reasoned guesses on your part. I feel that utilizing votes based on human action will be unsuccessful.
IMHO, there are plenty of user actions that do no involve a deliberate vote on a users part, that you can glean a more accurate portrayal of a bookmarks relevancy and importance.
At Furl, you star-rated your own bookmark when you made it (it was one of the fields in the bookmarklet popup, so I didn't need to go to another view to vote.)
Most useful to me was five stars: these are the very best articles that it is vital for me to find again. I also made use of 'one star' to rate my own bookmarks where I want others to realize that the bookmark was not my seal of approval, for reasons such as misleading claims, poor English, bugs, or simply an opinion I disagree with.
(Anecdote: once a marketing person e-mailed me when I rated a web page about her company's software "3 stars" or "good". She offered me a free trial, as she thought I had rated the software "3 stars" and of course to her it deserved 5.)
I accidentally "thumbed up" my own bookmark (I clicked once on the icon hoping to find a thumbs down option.) Unlike Flickr and YouTube, my clumsy vote appears to be irreversible
Lesson: Don't click on a thumb unless you mean it.
started by Jesse Kim on 16 May 07
I hope my suggestion is helpful to diigo developers. - Kim
Another power user! Awesome :-) Welcome to the Diigo community!
Agree. On our To-Do and we will do it quite well compared with other services :-)
I gave this some thought overnight and wonder if this might not be a solution. The idea I had would be to be able to rate the tags for a site. So if I have tags - education technology pedagogy "social constructivism" - I could perhaps rate them as - education 4 technology 2 pedagogy 4 "social constructivism" 4. This would convey to the user my opinions of the value of the site with regard to the tags I have allocated.
This solution does ultimately not resolve my concerns with regard to the numerical assessment of sites, but does represent a workable compromise.
Another concern I had though, is that of "rating flooding". Let's assume that 2000 employees from a company or University all join and rate their site as 5/5. This is a gross misuse of the rating concept, though of course all 2000 could say great things in their comments.
Aaarrggghhh!
maggie_diigo wrote:
> Agree. voting should be done in a meaningful way. We're giving some thought to it - thus, I said, if we do it, hopefully it will be in a more meaningful way :-)
But sometimes i miss some kind of personal rating system too. To solve this i use the tag ! or !! if i find something really interesting to me. So if i want to find something interesting (or at least interesting to me in a time) about a topic, i just have to use its tag in combination with the ! tag. Like, for example, searching "design + !" will return all the websites with great designs.
So, at least, personal rating is being usefull to me, and can also be interesting to see what other tagged as ! in that topic. While, of course, the results can not match my expectations, well, this is part of the social web, i'll be able to see what's interesting to others and see if there is someone with very common interests.
I'm not interested in 1 to 5 rating instead of just to be able to mark a web as 'important' in adition to tag it and mark it as unread.
We're putting a lot of thought into this. Thanks for your input.
http://groups.diigo.com/Diigo_HQ/forum/topic/410
> improve the Diigo Group Forum with a ranking system
http://groups.diigo.com/Diigo_HQ/forum/topic/is-diigo-better-than-delicious-or-is-it-in-a-class-by-itself-8917#3
> thumbs up rating
Here in Diigo: I'm 99% sure that 'thumbs up' and thumbs down' are never misinterpreted.
However: I do wonder whether rankings, ratings, measures *ultimately* add significant *long term* value to
* we users of Diigo
* service providers.
I wonder what makes something buzzy or hot http://www.diigo.com/buzz/hot but I don't expect an answer; making explicit the criteria could lead to misuse/abuse ;)
In other groups in which I participate, there was previously a very user-friendly star rating system (AFAIR, click any one of five stars to rate at that point in the scale), I enjoyed using that system, and I used it religiously. However: when I looked behind the scenes at how the ratings were used, it was clear that use was negligible. Interestingly, when the entire forum system was improved, the developers quietly replaced the five star sub-system with: no rating system. (There's a flag, which fits perfectly with the flagging standard in IMAP, and a flag is all I need.) The result of this loss? The outcry? AFAIR, not a whisper of discontent. And this was in an extremely active group of forums.
However: if someone had polled the masses on whether ratings should be deprecated, before the decision was made, I'm sure that there would have been an outcry ;)
The reality, as I see it: people prefer to discuss, comment.
Last, but not least - and I prepare to be literally (in words) assaulted on this point (I don't expect agreement) - I treat rating systems as one of those things that a) makes the individual feel good, or allows quiet venting steam, but b) has little positive affect on the 'life' of a bookmark. Or the life of a discussion. Etc.. In a word, I often (not always) treat ratings as:
* clutter.
(Food for thought: does that word 'clutter', that cat amongst the pigeons, make you wish to (a) press a thumbs down icon, or (b) express yourself in words?)
And on that provocative note (!) I'll leave this topic and, and nudge back to the foreground the topic that deserves most current attention: Joel's invitation to discuss 'read later'…
> I went there looking for information on social constructivism and
> find it lacking so I rate it 2.
> Someone else goes there and thinks the tech aspect is great and
> gives it a 4.5.
> So by averaging apples and pears we arrive at 3.25 fruits.
What a lovely metaphor.
To Hilary's thought: I publicly award:
* 4.85 truffles
and a nylon rosette of some sort :)
I do like the idea of a thumbs up/thumbs down button like is available in groups. What I like even more is the Like option on Friendfeed. It is a nice simple way to say that the bookmark was worthwhile. Why even bother with the negative connotation of the Thumbs down. One of the things that I think is really nice about Ma.gnolia is the Thanks feature. It really is cool to get an e-mail saying thanks when someone likes something you have published. It is especially nice when it is something that you didn't think would have broad appeal, lets you know someone is watching and liking what they are seeing.
I think a voting system should be as simple as possible. Let me say I like the bookmark, let me say thanks to someone for sharing it.
Maggie Tsai wrote:
> Agree. voting should be done in a meaningful way. We're giving some thought to it - thus, I said, if we do it, hopefully it will be in a more meaningful way :-)
I think the number of times viewed, i.e. Youtube vids or the number of times saved, i.e. Delicious bookmarks, to be a much more meaningful way of defining what is "hot and what is not." After all, why view it, why save it if it isn't interesting. These too, of course are also subject to the occasional nefarious manipulations, but is tempered by the fact that the legitimate ones are shared amongst peers and therefore the cream will rise to the top, as they say.
Couple of other cool ideas for users to get at what is relevant to them. Sort order lists based on personal relevancy. If you perform a search, trickle to the top the bookmarks that have been marked by your friends and ones that match your tag roll the best. Create a system of weighting the bookmarks based on personal criteria and display those closer to the top.
Give me 10 relevant bookmarks over a million random bookmarks any day!!! Why do you think Google has won the day in search?
In Diigo fora:
* I'd LOVE to give thumbs up, often
* I'd make far less use of thumbs down.
----
In Diigo boomkarks and lists:
* I'd not bother with thumbs up or down. I would, instead, Do A Diigo (annotate)
* I'd not disagree with the introduction of a thumbs up/down feature; it's clear that some users will enjoy using it.
http://groups.diigo.com/educators/bookmark?sort_by=3
Created: 2008-03-29
http://groups.diigo.com/edtechtalk/bookmark?sort_by=3
Created: 2007-05-08
http://groups.diigo.com/classroom20/bookmark?sort_by=3
Created: 2007-05-10
http://groups.diigo.com/cooltools/bookmark?sort_by=3
Created: 2007-07-28
Of the twenty-four: nine have comments.
----
http://groups.diigo.com/search?group_name=educators&what=c%3Athink reveals around twenty-one items in which (I guess) people express what they think.
A glance at the number of orange-outlined comments suggests that at least some of the group are, or were, keen to write.
Of the twenty-one: not one had a thumbs up. (I added just one, to test.)
Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing a rating system and saying it has no purpose, but I am trying to understand why it is that this one is not being utilized.
I think, and I believe you agree with this Graham, the better indicator of interest/relevancy and what users hold valuable is better reflected through their annotations they add to web pages.
Guesses:
* diverse views of a bookmark
* sometimes/often, the view of a bookmark presents no thumb
* 'My Bookmarks' is one such view
So: people who are most familiar with 'My Bookmarks' are unaccustomed to voting.
Another set of guesses:
* in a group environment, many bookmarks are naturally 'read later'
* the larger the group, the greater the likelihood that a majority of bookmarks will be 'read later'
* some people may wait days, weeks, months or even years before voting something up or down.
IMHO, there are plenty of user actions that do no involve a deliberate vote on a users part, that you can glean a more accurate portrayal of a bookmarks relevancy and importance.
At Furl, you star-rated your own bookmark when you made it (it was one of the fields in the bookmarklet popup, so I didn't need to go to another view to vote.)
Most useful to me was five stars: these are the very best articles that it is vital for me to find again. I also made use of 'one star' to rate my own bookmarks where I want others to realize that the bookmark was not my seal of approval, for reasons such as misleading claims, poor English, bugs, or simply an opinion I disagree with.
You can take a look at my five stars and my one stars (including my angry rants.)
(Anecdote: once a marketing person e-mailed me when I rated a web page about her company's software "3 stars" or "good". She offered me a free trial, as she thought I had rated the software "3 stars" and of course to her it deserved 5.)
http://n2.nabble.com/Ratings-tp2230797p2261384.html (highlights).
Incidentally, a later part of the same thread (focused on a YouTube example) creeps into another Diigo topic, STICKY SPAM - NEED TO RESOLVE THIS.
I accidentally "thumbed up" my own bookmark (I clicked once on the icon hoping to find a thumbs down option.) Unlike Flickr and YouTube, my clumsy vote appears to be irreversible
Lesson: Don't click on a thumb unless you mean it.