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Gary Patton

Crucifixion - The Physical Suffering of Jesus - Till He Comes - 0 views

www.tillhecomes.org/ixion-physical-suffering-jesus

bible scripture scripture interpretation suffering jesus religion christians

shared by Gary Patton on 28 Mar 12 - No Cached
  • Gary Patton on 28 Mar 12
     
    "We all know Jesus was crucified. But few of us realize how painful and gruesome crucifixion was. Two thousand years of separation has sanitized it. Better understanding what Jesus actuaally endured during his last 12 hours on earth as God incarnate can help us better appreciate how much he loves us. gfp (2012-03-28)
Gary Patton

"Jesus Predicts His Death & The Wisdom of His Followers Suicide Also" - Bible Gateway - 0 views

www.diigo.com/...f4799233d9340cd9cf7de694f3748d

bible scripture scripture interpretation spiritual growth jesus death

shared by Gary Patton on 25 Sep 13 - No Cached
  • Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 25 Sep 13
       
      In John 12:24, in context, Jesus again confirms that the ONLY we we committed can follow Him is as a " Walking Dead Wo(man)'" by committing suicide also through our own crucifixion with Him. He says the same thing in other ways in Matthew 16:20-25, at https://diigo.com/014z8s & John 15:5 at http://diigo.com/0jv2h . Jesus' Apostle (sent out one), Paul, makes clear his permanent status as a Walking Dead Man in Galatians 2:20. GaryFPatton (2013-09-25 © gfp '42™)
  • Jesus Predicts His Death
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 25 Sep 13
       
      In John 12:24, in context, Jesus again confirms that the ONLY we we committed can follow Him is as a " Walking Dead Wo(man)'" by committing suicide also through our own crucifixion with Him. He says the same thing in other ways in Matthew 16:20-25, at https://diigo.com/014z8s & John 15:5 at http://diigo.com/0jv2h . Jesus' Apostle (sent out one), Paul, makes clear his permanent status as a Walking Dead Man in Galatians 2:20. GaryFPatton (2013-09-25 © gfp '42™)
  • Gary Patton on 25 Sep 13
     
    In John 12:24, in context, Jesus again confirms that the ONLY we we committed can follow Him is as a a " Walking Dead Wo(man)" through our own crucifixion with Him. He says the same thing in other ways in Matthew 16:20-25, at and John 15:5 at http://diigo.com/0jv2h . Jesus' Apostle (sent out one), Paul, makes clear his permanent status as a Walking Dead Man in Galatians 2:20. GaryFPatton (2013-09-25 © gfp '42™)
Gary Patton

"One Biblical Account of Jesus' Crucifixion" - Bible Gateway - 0 views

www.biblegateway.com/passage

bible scripture scripture interpretation Jesus evangelism theology salvation Isa Islam

shared by Gary Patton on 12 Dec 12 - No Cached
  • So the soldiers took charge of Jesus.
  • Here they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle
  • Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: jesus of nazareth, the king of the jews.
  • ...7 more annotations...
  • written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.
  • When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes
  • This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said,“They divided my garments among them    and cast lots for my clothing.
  •  Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
  •  Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath
  • one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
  • These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[b] 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[c]
  • Gary Patton on 12 Dec 12
     
    "One Biblical Account of Jesus' Crucifixion" John 19:16-42 in the Christian New Covenant (Testament) describes the death of Yeshua (Jesus) on His cross. He voluntarily, as God the Son, Emmanuel, God in flesh and bones. He dis so to redeem all who will believe in Him and His sacrifice for them as God from their violation of God the Father's laws and their sin nature by means of the saving power of Gog the Holy Spirit.
Gary Patton

Jesus' Crucifixion - Bible Gateway - 0 views

www.biblegateway.com/passage

scripture bible John Jesus yeshua Isa crucifixion cross

shared by Gary Patton on 22 Dec 11 - No Cached
  • blood and water came out
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 23 Dec 11
       
      This a medically and forencically accurate description of the separation of "clot and serum" that occurs in bleeding from a wound inflicted post-mortem. This is explained in full the account of the forensic autopsy of the evidence visible on the "Shroud of Turin" at http://diigo.com/0m1n0. Some Christians consider this categorical proof that the God-man, Yeshua, actually died of crucifixion and was, then, burried as recounted in the Gospels' accounts of Yesuha's last hours on earth as the God-man. Other experts believe that the Shroud is a medieval hoax. (If it is, how some aspects of the surface markings were created, plus the medical science unknown at the time that they depict, stumps some modern forensic experts.
  • Gary Patton on 22 Dec 11
     
    This passage, John 19:14-42, is one of the four Gospel descriptions of Yeshua's/Jesus', the Messiah's, sacrifice of Himself and death on a Roman cross and later burial. These Gospel descriptions each contradict the Muslim Qur'an's contradiction that the Prophet, whom the Qur'an calls, Isa, was crucified and died for our sin nature and sins as outlined at ?
Gary Patton

True Jesus Followers Are ' Walking Dead Wo(men)'" - Bible Gateway - 0 views

www.biblegateway.com/passage

bible scripture scripture interpretation spiritual growth jesus death

shared by Gary Patton on 25 Sep 13 - No Cached
  • Matthew 16:20-25
  • Matthew 16:20-25
  • Matthew 16:20-25
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 25 Sep 13
       
      In Matthew 16:20-25, Jesus again confirms that the ONLY we we committed can follow Him is as a a " Walking Dead Wo(man)" through our own crucifixion with Him. He says the same thing in other ways in John 12:24 at https://diigo.com/014z8s and John 15:5 at http://diigo.com/0jv2h . Jesus' Apostle (sent out one), Paul, makes clear his permanent status as a Walking Dead Man in Galatians 2:20. GaryFPatton (2013-09-25 © gfp '42™)
  • ...1 more annotation...
  • “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 25 Sep 13
       
      If this isn't a description by Jesus, "God, The One & Only" of an executed "Walking Deat Wo(man), I don't know what is!
  • Gary Patton on 25 Sep 13
     
    In Matthew 16:20-25, Jesus again confirms that the ONLY we we can follow Him is as a a " Walking Dead Wo(man)" through our own crucifixion with Him. He says the same thing in other ways in John 12:24 and 15:5. Jesus' Apostle (sent out one), Paul, makes clear his permanent status as a Walking Dead Man in Galatians 2:20. GaryFPatton (2013-09-25
Gary Patton

"Jesus' Coming Was Prophesied For Over 1,000 Years" - Bible Gateway - 0 views

www.biblegateway.com/passage

bible scripture Psalm 53 Yeshua Jesus Messiah prophesy

shared by Gary Patton on 13 Sep 12 - No Cached
  • Gary Patton on 13 Sep 12
     
    "Jesus' Coming Was Prophesied For Over 1,000 Years" In Psalm 53, among many other passages in the Old Covenant (the Jewish part of the Christian Bible), Yeshua (Jesus) is clearly prophesied as the Jews' long-awaited Messiah. This prophesy was about 1,000 years before His coming as "God the Son". This Scripture was written down by the Jewish King, David, about 1,00 B.C.. For those with a general knowledge of Jesus' life and death by crucifixion, the prophesy is clear for anyone "with eyes to see and ears to hear", as Jesus was fond of saying as recorded in the New Covenant, which He made with His Followers. both Jews and Gentiles (all non-Jews, including Muslims). Other prophesies even pre-date this one in age. GaryFPatton (gfp '42™ 2012-09-12)
Gary Patton

Was Jesus' Last Supper a Seder? - Biblical Archaeology Review - 0 views

www.bib-arch.org/...jesus-last-supper.asp

bible scripture interpretation Jesus judiasm christianity archaeology history

shared by Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12 - No Cached
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      Why would two people, Matthew and Luke, who were the more consistent eye witnesses to the accounts that they report copy Mark? It makes no sense. Mark was a boy while Jesus walked Israel and did not travel about with Him. Mark also was not an original Disciple of Jesus and reported on most the events in his Gospel based on second hand information from the Disciples who did travel with jesus, one can assume. I feel the whole Mathew and Luke copied Mark plus Mark is based on some lost document called "Q" theory of many scholars is rooted in a desire by many to deny or ignore God's supernatural involvement in the documentation of His Son's incarnation and ignores the fact that Matthew and John were eye witnesses to all of what they wrote about. They had no need to copy but had their own perspective on what they heard and saw as do modern witnesses. Likewise, modern research indicates that the reports of most eye witnesses are highly unreliable. If God was not involved, one would have to question the accounts. If that one is not a Jesus Follower and without faith in the supernatural inerancy of the Biblical accounts of both the Old and New Covenants, that's another matter entirely.
  • Thus, in fact we don’t really have three independent sources here at all. What we have, rather, is one testimony (probably Mark), which was then copied twice (by Matthew and Luke).
  • Was Jesus’ Last Supper a Seder?
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      This April 2012 article in BAR analyzes the similarities between the Jewish Seder and what Christians call Jesus' "Last Supper" and the timing of the event based on archaeological evidence. gfp (2012-04-07)
  • ...25 more annotations...
  • the Gospels—with their hatred of the Jewish authorities
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      I wonder why the author construes an historical report of what the writer considered 'truth' and 'facts' as 'hatred'. The history of Christianity may be replete with antisemitism, especially some of the protestant Reformers of the Catholic Church, like Luther particulalrly. However, I feel the charge of hatred in the Gospel accounts of the Jewish involvement in the death of Jesus is an unfair one. The Roman authorities were jst as responsible for the crucifixion of Yeshua/Jesus. In fact the Bible seems to make clear that the sin nature and sins of every person who has ever or ever will live is the real reason for Jesus' death. We are ALL responsible ...not just the Jewish and Roman authorities!
  • John’s timing of events supports the Christian claim that Jesus himself was a sacrifice and that his death heralds a new redemption, just as the Passover offering recalls an old one. Even so, John’s claim that Jesus was killed just before Passover began is more plausible than the synoptics’ claim that Jesus was killed on Passover.
  • the Last Supper could not in fact have been a Passover Seder.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      Christian historical tradition labels "The Last Supper" a Seder ... not Jesus. He is recorded to have simply called it the "last time He would eat this bread and drink this wine until ...". It was "the time for passover". That Jesus duplicated many Seder rituals seems to be clear from the Gospel accounts ...even if the timing was off. What's the big deal? The REALLY important thing about the Easter events is that Jesus died for humankind's sin nature and sins. Plus, the other big historical event is His resurrection from the grave as proof that God accepted Jesus' sacrifice on behalf of "all who will believe" in Him and what He did for us!
  • That Christians celebrated the Eucharist on a daily or weekly basis (see Acts 2:46–47) underscores the fact that it was not viewed exclusively in a Passover context (otherwise, it would have been performed, like the Passover meal, on an annual basis).
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      Jesus called us to "do this", i.e., celebrate His sacrifice by eating together as a community of Believers in and Followers of Him. He did not call us to celebrate Passover an eternal commandment for Jews only. Jesus claimed that he had come to fulfill "all the [requirements of the] law and the prophets"!
  • Moreover, while the narrative in the synoptics situates the Last Supper during Passover, the fact remains that the only foods we are told the disciples ate are bread and wine—the basic elements of any formal Jewish meal.
  • “Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’ And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant’” (Matthew 26:26–28=Mark 14:22; see also Luke 22:19–20). Is this not a striking parallel to the ways in which Jews celebrating the Seder interpret, for example, the bitter herbs eaten with the Passover sacrifice as representing the bitter life the Israelites experienced as slaves in Egypt?
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      I'd suggest it is more a replacement of, as I note above, rather than a parallel with a Seder!
  • For many Jews (especially non-Orthodox Jews), the process of development continues, and many modern editions of the Haggadah contain contemporary readings of one sort or another. Even many traditional Jews have, for instance, adapted the Haggadah so that mention can be made of the Holocaust.8
  • Almost everyone doing serious work on the early history of Passover traditions, including Joseph Tabory, Israel Yuval, Lawrence Hoffman, and the father-son team of Shmuel and Ze’ev Safrai, has rejected Finkelstein’s claims for the great antiquity of the bulk of the Passover Haggadah.
  • It’s not that rabbinic literature cannot be trusted to tell us about history in the first century of the Common Era. It’s that rabbinic literature—in the case of the Seder—does not even claim to be telling us how the Seder was performed before the destruction of the Temple.b
  • the Holy One, blessed be He
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      Here may lie the roots of the similar Muslim practise regarding their reverance, not for God's holy name(s) but, for their human prophet Mohammud. Many Muslims are taught to rever their prophet at a level that approaches worship. The Judeo-Christian Bible reserves worship ONLY for Almighty God ...not the demonically inspired construct called Allah and certainly not a murderous Arab warrior from the 7th Century.
  • King of Kings, the Holy One Blessed be He
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      As I wonder in the e-Sticky Note immediately above, here may lie the root of the similar Muslim practise regarding their reverance, not for God's holy name(s) but, for their human prophet Mohammud. Many Muslims are taught to rever their prophet at a level that approaches worship. The Judeo-Christian Bible reserves worship ONLY for Almighty God ...not the demonically inspired construct called Allah and certainly not a murderous Arab warrior from the 7th Century.
  • Might not Jesus be presenting a competing interpretation of these symbols? Possibly. But it really depends on when this Rabban Gamaliel lived. If he lived later than Jesus, then it would make no sense to view Jesus’ words as based on Rabban Gamaliel’s.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      Most Jesus Followers would work from the premise that Yeshua's/Jesus' words during his last Supper on earth, 'till His return at the end of times, were inspired by God's Holy Spirit ...like all His other recorded comments in the Scriptures.
  • Virtually all scholars working today believe that the Haggadah tradition attributing the words quoted above to Gamaliel refers to the grandson, Rabban Gamaliel the Younger, who lived long after Jesus had died.14 One piece of evidence for this appears in the text quoted above, in which Rabban Gamaliel is said to have spoken of the time “when the Temple was still standing”—as if that time had already passed.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      Like many scholars, including some Christian ones, statements like this one are often rooted in a disbelief of the supernatural plus a denial of the possibility that God gave Gamaliel, the Grandfather, a prophetic "word of knowledge"! Prophesy can place the words in the elder Gamaliel's mouth who did live at the time of Jesus who also prophesied the soon-coming (about 40 years later) destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
  • And presumably they would have engaged in conversation pertinent to the occasion. But we cannot know for sure.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      A Jesus Follower can know that s(he) knows by faith in the accuracy of our Scriptures. The Scriptures make clear, not 'presumably', that Jesus discussed His replacement of an Old Covenant commandment with a New Covenant. he explains clearly a NEW symbolism for the bread and wine as remembrances and tokens of His sacrificed body and blood on behalf of all who would believe ...NOT the Jews deliverance from Egypt but... all humankind's route to deliverance from the penalty of our sin nature and sins (Romans 3:23 & 6:23) through Him!
  • Having determined that the Last Supper was not a Seder and that it probably did not take place on Passover, I must try to account for why the synoptic Gospels portray the Last Supper as a Passover meal.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      The Last Supper being a Seder meal on the Day of Passover is NOT the key issue for a Jesus Follower as I mentioned in my e-Sticky Note above. The key on the cotrary is Who Jesus was as the God-man and what he was about to do for us on His cross on cavalry.
  • Another motive relates to a rather practical question: Within a few years after Jesus’ death, Christian communities (which at first consisted primarily of Jews) began to ask when, how and even whether they should celebrate or commemorate the Jewish Passover
  • The Quartodeciman custom of celebrating Easter beginning on the evening following the 14th day apparently began relatively early in Christian history and persisted at least into the fifth century C.E.
  • Early on, a number of Christians—Quartodecimans and others—felt that the appropriate way to mark the Jewish Passover was not with celebration, but with fasting.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      Interestingly, no where, that I can find in the Old or New Covenants, does God command or even suggest that His people should fast. I have not extensively researched the issue but, I suspect I'll discover that, this propably is a Jewish ritual that was carried on by early Christians, i.e., another man-made tradition. There is the reference in Matthew 6:16-18 where Jesus says: "When you fast ...." This is NOT a command but simply, in context, an observational reference to a practise that was common among religious Jews ...the group to whom Jesus was speaking. I comment further on this issue in e-Sticky Note on the Matthew 6 Scripture at http://diigo.com/0piw0 and in the article on fasting from Christianity today at http://diigo.com/0p9iv .
  • Thus, until Jesus’ kingdom is fulfilled, Christians should not celebrate at all during Passove
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      here again, and depsite what Karl Kuhn says, the issue is not celebrating Passover, but Jesus' command to eat together as a group of his Followers whenever we can and "remember" him.
  • By calling the Last Supper a Passover meal, these Jewish-Christians were trying to limit Christian practice in three ways. Like the Passover sacrifice, the recollection of the Last Supper could only be celebrated in Jerusalem, at Passover time, and by Jews.c
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      This heresy didn't last very long. Some Messianic Jews still today follow Old Covenant feast and other practises that other Christians do not.
  • there are various reasons why the early church would have tried to “Passoverize” the Last Supper tradition.
  • This too is a Passoverization of the Jesus tradition, but it is one that contradicts the identification of the Last Supper with the Seder or Passover meal.
  • Surely the depiction of the Last Supper as a Passover observance could play a part in this larger effort of arguing that Jesus’ death echoes the Exodus from Egypt
  • a widely popular Paschal sermon, which could well be called a “Christian Haggadah,” reflecting at great length on the various connections between the Exodus story and the life of Jesus
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      Typology as some call it i.e., seeing Old Covenant people, practises and places as 'types' or 'shadows' pointing to or representing Jesus is common in some Christian circles and with some teachers.
  • Contrary to popular belief, the Catholic custom of using unleavened wafers in the Mass is medieval in origin. The Orthodox churches preserve the earlier custom of using leavened bread.23 Is it not possible to see the switch from using leavened to unleavened bread as a “Passoverization” of sorts?
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 07 Apr 12
       
      And regardless of leavened or unleavened bread or wafers, these kinds of issue are seen by many Jesus Followers as focusing on dead and deadly religious ritual, regalia and rules rather than on relationship, revelation and romance with a living God through Yeshua/Jesus the Messiah/Christ.
Gary Patton

Jesus Foretells His Death - Bible Gateway - 0 views

www.biblegateway.com/passage

bible scripture john scripture interpretation Jesus evangelism

shared by Gary Patton on 06 May 12 - No Cached
  • John 12:27-33 
  • if I (J)am lifted up from the earth, will (K)draw all men to Myself.”
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 06 May 12
       
      Please note that Jesus said that after His crucifixion He would "draw ALL wo(men)" to Himself.
  • Gary Patton on 06 May 12
     
    In John 12:27-33, Jesus prophesies his death and the reason for it. gfp (2012-05-06)
Gary Patton

Liberal Christian Scholarship ...Redaction Criticism, and Islam (Part 1) - 0 views

aomin.org/...index.php

christianity Islam christians muslims religion bible scripture scripture interpretation

shared by Gary Patton on 27 Mar 12 - No Cached
  • Some Brief Thoughts Regarding Liberal Scholarship, Redaction Criticism, and Islam
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 27 Mar 12
       
      In this article, Dr. James White, of Alpha & Omega Ministries examines the dangers of "Redaction and Form Criticism" in Christian scholarship (sic) and the refusal by Muslim scholars to apply it to Islam while using it to attack Christians beliefs based on our Bible. gfp (2012-03-27)
  • the vast majority of those who embrace form and redaction criticism in all of its flavors and kinds do so out of tradition, not out of having examined the case set forth in defense of these methods.
  • I truly wondered why the Lord had closed all other doors and put me in that context, but, now I know) forced me to consider deeply why I could not in good conscience embrace the "status quo" of modern NT scholarship
  • ...18 more annotations...
  • I found, over and over again, the same kind of bald anti-supernaturalism at work, even amongst those who did not openly espouse such a view in their "religious life."
  • This kind of double-mindedness was epidemic in Christian theology then. It is still quite prevalent, but in the past decade more and more have shed the religious trappings and are seeking to be consistent, not even bothering with the religious garb any longer.
  • I would challenge (respectfully
  • saying the gospels were quite late, post AD 70, for example, I would ask why they would date them so late (and, as a result, deny the eyewitness authorship of, say, Matthew)
  • we would date them late because…of theories. Theories about how documents develop (in the natural world). Theories about how the early church developed (based upon, again, how such things happen in the natural world). And of course the big reason was…they had to have been written after AD 70 because, well, they couldn't have been written before otherwise they would contain…prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem! And we all know prophecy doesn't really exist, so there!
  • I only learned later in seminary and after graduation how confident scholarship had been in the past in giving even later dates, German scholarship, for example, having dated John as late as AD 175, only to have those dates thrown to the wind by manuscript discoveries.
  • the "consensus of scholarship," especially in a day when humanism and naturalistic materialism has become the religious dogma of the society, and of higher education, is not an option for the faithful follower of the teachings of Jesus the Messiah.
  • For years Shabir Ally had been making a presentation wherein he presents the "snowball" argument. It is a basic anti-gospel argument based upon a rather simplistic viewpoint of the origination of the gospels.
  • Shabir thinks there is an over-riding impetus on the part of both Matthew and Luke to "grow" Jesus, assuming, of course, an evolution in the development of Christology (another assumption that is just accepted, never proven). So, Matthew and Luke are looking for ways to "improve" on Jesus---which puts them in the category of deceivers, really, at the very least from an Islamic viewpoint
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 27 Mar 12
       
      Muslims who, like Imam Ally have a minimal knowldge of the New Covenat and wish to feign politness, can use this "improvement" approach. It prevents them from having to use the blunt English word change when attacking Scriptures validity. During the debate, I heard a Muslim and a Christian in the seats immediately behind me discussing the semantical difference between these words. The Christian suspected, as do I, that Imam Ally was accusing the Apostles Mathew and Luke of being "liars".
  • examples of where Matthew was "growing" Jesus
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 27 Mar 12
       
      "Growing" is Dr. White's word. Imam Ally never used it. Instead, he stated candidly that Mathew and Luke intentionally "deified" a human Prophet which Muslims say Yeshua only was because "Allah doesn't begat" (Qur'an 23:88-91).
  • Shabir did not know that Mark used the Greek term κύριος (kurios) when he was making his presentations before 2006, but he does now. But still, in our debate in Toronto, he argued that in fact this is still an example supportive of his thesis, no matter what his understanding had been before, for "lord of the house" is still different from "Lord." He likewise cited a scholar who, writing on the "synoptic problem," likewise mentions this "change."
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 27 Mar 12
       
      In other words, Imam Ally has found an obfuscating, so-called, Christian author to justify what he now knows is a 'lie" that he wishes to still feed to his ignorant Muslim audience, knowing that they will believe him over Dr. White.
  • let's talk about how this text could be seen in a very different fashion.
  • Let's admit something: We do not know when any of the gospels were written. They have no date stamps on them. If we examine the internal material of the Synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) without naturalistic biases, we would have to conclude they were written between 35 and about 65 AD (i.e., after the crucifixion but prior to the opening of hostilities leading to the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in AD 70)
  • As Richard Bauckham has pointed out (and his role in our debate was most interesting, and again illustrated that I really do not believe Dr. Ally understands my point on this matter), the eyewitnesses to the events of the gospel continued in the church for many decades, forming a very important core element of the continuation of the gospel message.
  • The gospel story began to be proclaimed by the eyewitnesses and the first generation of believers immediately after Pentecost. It spread like wildfire, turning the world upside down. It spread both by zeal as well as by persecution. The oral tradition of the church was the context out of which the gospels themselves were written. The gospel writers were fully aware of that tradition. They were not seeking to supplant it, but to organize it and preserve it in yet another form.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 28 Mar 12
       
      During the debate, I could not understand why Dr. White kept referring to the "oral tradition" as he does here without once making the powerful point that the Gospel writers were the originators of the tradition as the disciples of Jesus. They were writing about their eye witness accounts ...not recounting an oral tradion circulated first by others.
  • This oral tradition, something shared by the entire community, is the source out of which they drew their narrative.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 27 Mar 12
       
      It is the source only to the extend that they, themselves, were the creaters of the so-called "oral tradition" as members of Jesus "inside group of disciples".
  • If we assume that Matthew and Mark are not liars, that they are not dishonest men, and that they are seeking to communicate a message faithfully, drawing from the tradition known to them, we conclude, upon examination of numerous texts such as the above, that
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 28 Mar 12
       
      Here Dr. White writes again like the Gospel accounts were repeated by the Apostles from what others said rather than them writing down the stories in which they, themselves, particiapted with Jesus. Dr. White's approach confuses me because, to me, it doesn't make the point regarding eye-witness testimony!
  • we can see that both are giving us perfectly proper renditions of the same incident and the same words, one in fuller form than the other, both seeking to communicate the same concept, though to two different audiences.
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 28 Mar 12
       
      Police and lawyer studies confirm this type of variiance is common between eye witness accounts when an event is seem from different perspectives through the experiences and mindset of unique people. I'm unclear why Dr. white doesn't state this fact which reinforces his hypothesis about Scripture's timeline and seeming contradictions.
Gary Patton

"Wage Peace ...Not War" - Bible Gateway - 0 views

www.biblegateway.com/passage

Bible romans peace-making war violence scripture peace

shared by Gary Patton on 01 Dec 11 - No Cached
  • give preference to one another
  • Bless those who persecute [d]you; bless and do not curse
  • do not be haughty in mind,
  • ...11 more annotations...
  • Never pay back evil for evil to anyone.
  • BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.”
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 01 Dec 11
       
      Placing Burning Coals on Another's Head Paul, quoted from Proverbs 25:21-23 here to make a crucial point for his First Century readers and Jesus Followers today. He did so to demonstrate that our heavenly Father does not overlook fairness and justice although He substituted New Covenant 'grace' for Old Covenant 'law' when He sent Jesus to die for us as outlined in His New Covenant. (You can read about Jesus' crucifixion in Matthew 27:27 to Mathew 28:20 at . Proverbs 25:21 at confuses some people because its Jewish cultural context is not clear from its words. A "burning coal" was essential in Biblical Palestine each morning so Jewish families could re-light their cooking fire for the day after it died out during the night. In each Jewish village, one man carried a pot of coals from home to home to assist the homemaker who needed one. "Burning coals" are blessings not torture instruments in this Proverb as some think. "The head", in Jewish culture was the place on another's body where one anointed them with precious perfumes and oils as a extension of an oral blessing on them. (gfp 2011-10-24)
  • Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
  • Never take your own revenge, beloved, but [g]leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “(T)VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord.
  • If possible, (Q)so far as it depends on you, (R)be at peace with all men.
  • Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
  • For (Y)rulers are not a cause of fear for [k]good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an (Z)avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
  • Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for (AE)he who loves [l]his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
  • YOU SHALL NOT MURDER
    • Gary Patton
      Gary Patton on 29 May 12
       
      Please Jesus Follower, do not mistake the Old Covenant commandment to "not murder" as permitting, as some unBiblically teach,: * so-called "just wars", plus * participation as a gun-carrying police person, or * participation as a politician who can vote on declaring war or laws sentencing a person to death for a crime. Jesus' clear, unequivocal call is to be a non-violent person who wages peace on his behalf ...not war... because Jesus came to "fulfill the [Old Covenant] Law'". Our commanded peace-making lifestyle is clear in this passage of Scripture plus Jesus' many commands to His Followers to live a life of non-violent behaviour in every way that I mention below. "Peace is not something you wish for. It's something you [first receive, then something you] make, something you do, something you are and something you give away." ~ Robert Fulghum (1937- ) U.S. author http://diigo.com/0kmml As Mr. Fulghum writes above, Jesus calls us to be non-violent peace-makers throughout His New Covenant with us! e.g.: * Matthew 5:9, the reward for peace-making at http://diigo.com/0kmjn; * His commanded peace-making approach in Matthew 5:38-45 at http://diigo.com/0kmlr and * God's condemnation of violence including war in Romans 12:10-13:9 at http://diigo.com/0kmml. Jesus has no concept of a so-called "just war" Jesus Follower please do not feel that because the State is authorized to use violence to protect society that you are permitted to: * participate in making, as a politician, or upholding, as a gun-carrying justice officer, a State's laws that contain a death penalty, or * voting as a politician or a citizen for your country to participate in a so-called "just war", or fighting in a war as a weapon-carrying soldier. You are not according to Jesus' clear calls to a non-violent life. How do I obey the law you might ask? Simple, I suggest! You will never be "forced" in a democracy to run for an elected office in "the world", as distict from "Jesus'
  • Romans 12:10-13:9
  • You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
  • Gary Patton on 01 Dec 11
     
    In Romans 12:10-13:9 in the pre-Jesus (Yeshua) New Covenant, Jesus' Apostle (Sent-Out-One), Paul, makes clear there are no "Just Wars" as far as Jesus Followers are to be concerned. Jesus Followers are called by our Lord and Saviour to wage peace ...not war. We are commanded to be non-violent radicals not passive pew-sitters. To be Gentlewo(men) Warriors not D.O.O.R.M.A.T.s (members of the "Dependent Order Of Really Miserable And Timid Souls"). You may ask me for my article about ""Real Warriors Are Humble & Meek" if the link doesn't work for you. Paul also includes an interesting Old Covenant Proverb in Verse 20 from Proverbs 25:21-23 the cultural context of which might fool you into thinking something it doesn't mean. To better understand what the Apostle meant, don't miss my Sticky Note on Verse 20. gfp (2011-10-24)
  • Gary Patton on 01 Dec 11
     
    So you think there are just wars, eh? Check this out! gfp
Gary Patton

Forensic Autopsy of the Shroud of Turin - 0 views

www.theholyshroud.net/Body.htm

Jesus yeshua crucifixion autopsy Shroud of Turin

shared by Gary Patton on 22 Dec 11 - No Cached
  • Many scientist have used knowledge of forensic medicine to determine the characteristics and cause of death of the man of the Shroud. Here, we show some of the data published in "The Authentication of the Turin Shroud: An Issue in Archaeological Epistemology by William Meacham. Current Antropology- Vol. 24 - N° 3 - (June 1983). Published by the University of Chicago Press". Although there is no general agreement among the scholars about all the details presented in this article, we think it is a good guide to approach the issue.
  • All authorities agree that this wound was inflicted after death, judging from the small quantity of blood issued, the separation of clot and serum, the lack of swelling, and the deeper color and more viscous consistency of the blood. Stains of a body fluid are intermingled with the blood, and numerous theories have been offered as to its origin: pericardial fluid (Judica, Barbet), fluid from the pleural sac (Moedder), or serous fluid from settled blood in the pleural cavity (Saval, Bucklin).
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