"National Checkup" panel debates the pros, cons and questions surrounding a universal d... - 0 views
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THE NATIONAL Thu Mar 19 2015,
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WENDY MESLEY (HOST): All that medicine isn't cheap either. Canadians spent an estimated 22 billion dollars a year on prescriptions in 2013, almost twice what they spent in 2001. One in ten struggle to afford it. It's big business and big drug companies know it, spending billions marketing it right back to you. VOICE OF UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN (ANNOUNCER): (Advertisement) Ask your doctor if Lunesta is right for you. WENDY MESLEY (HOST):
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So are we over- or under-medicated? Is the high cost of prescription drugs failing to help Canadians in need? And what should we be watching for next? So we'll start with that middle question, like, who is not covered? Who is falling through the cracks? You must all see this in your practices? Danielle, what are you seeing? DANIELLE MARTIN (FAMILY PHYSICIAN, WOMEN'S COLLEGE HOSPITAL): In fact, millions of Canadians have no drug coverage whatsoever and millions more don't have adequate coverage for their needs. In my practice I see it all the time among the self-employed, people who are working in small businesses, people who are working part-time and don't have employer-based coverage. It's the taxi drivers, it's the people who are working in a part-time job, but it's also middle-income people who are consultants or working in small businesses who don't have coverage. So this isn't just a problem for the poor. It's a problem for people across socioeconomic lines.
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DANIELLE MARTIN (WOMEN'S COLLEGE HOSPITAL): Well, I think it's probably not divided properly and I also think that we need to be very mindful of the ways in which advertising and marketing, whether it's direct to patients or consumers as we often consume from the American media on our television screens, or whether it's direct to physicians. So, you know, in fact, even in the U.S. under the Affordable Care Act, physicians are now required to declare any amount of money that they take from the pharmaceutical industry. We have no such sunshine law here in Canada. Don't Canadian patients want to know if your doctor has had their vacation or their last meal or their speakers' fees paid by the company that makes the drug they have just prescribed for you? WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Well, we saw in those ads they'll say: Ask your doctor. Is there a lot of pressure and is that contributing to the number of pills on the market? SAMIR SINHA (GERIATRICIAN, MOUNT SINAI/UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK):
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WENDY MESLEY (HOST): What are you seeing, David? DAVID HENRY (PROFESSOR, DALLA LANA SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO): I think this is right and it's a surprise to somebody from outside of Canada to find that in a country with a good comprehensive care system, there is not drug coverage. So patients with chronic disease, for instance diabetics, ironically in the city where insulin was discovered, are relying on free handouts from their physicians to provide what is really an essential medication; it's keeping them alive. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Who do you think is falling through the cracks? What are you seeing?
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CARA TANNENBAUM (GERIATRIC PHYSICIAN, PHARMACY CHAIR, UNIVERSITÉ DE MONTRÉAL): The vulnerable population in my mind are older adults with multiple medical conditions who are taking 5, 10, 15 medications at the same time and have to pay the deductible on that. And that adds up for a lot of them who don't have a lot of money to begin with, so they start making choices about will I take my drugs until the end of the month? Will I take every single medication that I have to? Do I really need those three medications for my high blood pressure, or can I let one go? And that could have effects on their health. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Well, you mentioned diabetes, David. We heard earlier on "The National" this week from a woman in B.C. She has diabetes. That's a life-threatening disease if it's not looked after. This is what she said.
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SASHA JANICH (PHON.) (DIABETES PATIENT): Roughly about 600 to 800 bucks a month. I don't get any help until I spend at last 3500 a year and then they'll kick in, you know, whatever portion they decide to cover. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): So, David, that's really common? People on diabetes aren't fully covered?
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DAVID HENRY (PROFESSOR, DALLA LANA SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO): Well, they're covered to a degree in B.C., but it's what we call the co- payment level that they have to make even under an insurance program. In Ontario, they don't have any insurance at all. They're going to pay the full market price if they don't have insurance through their employer, and they may lose that if they're out of work. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): What are you seeing? What's not covered? Give me an example. DANIELLE MARTIN (WOMEN'S COLLEGE HOSPITAL):
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Well, actually, one thing that I think is surprising to a lot of people is the variability in coverage among public drug plans in Canada. So something that's covered, even if you're covered under a public drug plan, for example if you have cancer and you have to take chemotherapy outside of the hospital, in many Canadian provinces that's taken care of. In Ontario, for example, it's not. And I think that many Canadians are surprised to discover, imagine the, you know, enormous stress of a cancer diagnosis, that on top of that you're going to have to pay out of pocket at least to very… sometimes to very, very high levels, in fact. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Samir? SAMIR SINHA (GERIATRICIAN, MOUNT SINAI/UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK): And even just the other day, I just was debating with a pharmacy about the cost of some vitamin D. I have a person who's under house, he's on social assistance, and they said: We'll give you a free blister pack, you know, so he can sort his meds. We'll give you this. And we were actually, you know, working out a pricing system so this guy could even afford something so that he wouldn't break bones and actually have a fracture down the road. So it's amazing how some of the basic things we think are important aren't even covered. WENDY MESLEY (HOST):
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Well, we saw that the drug costs have almost doubled in the last 11, 12 years. Is part of the problem… there's only so much, it seems, money to go around for prescription drugs. Is part of the problem that there's too many… some drugs are too easily available while people who really need them are not getting them? And there's marketing playing into that. We see a lot of ads in the last ten years. Check this out. VOICE OF UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN (ANNOUNCER): (Advertisement) We know a place where tossing and turning have given way to sleeping, where sleepless nights yield to restful sleep. And Lunesta can help you get there.
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UNIDENTIFIED MAN #1: (Advertisement) Anyone with high cholesterol may be at increased risk of heart attack. I stopped kidding myself. VOICE OF UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2 (ANNOUNCER): (Advertisement) Talk to your doctor about your risk. VOICE OF UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN (ANNOUNCER): (Advertisement) Ask your doctor if Lunesta is right for you.
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WENDY MESLEY (HOST): It's funny, you know, we hear our health plan discussed in the United States and now you talk about our socialized medicine and it's sort of until you have a health problem, you assume everything is covered. But who falls through the cracks that you see, Samir? SAMIR SINHA (GERIATRICIAN, MOUNT SINAI/UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK): Yeah, I mean, I treat a lot of older patients and those who are 65 and older generally are covered by a provincial drug plan. But, you know, I'm seeing more and more, especially after the recent recession, we have people who are closer to that age who lose their jobs and if they lose their jobs and they were relying on private drug coverage plans, they are not covered. And then they find themselves they can't afford their medications, they get sicker and they literally have to wait and be sick until they can actually get their medications.
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Well, it's a huge amount of pressure, I think, you know, for… you know, if you're a doctor that relies on information or supports from pharmaceutical representatives, for example, then there is that pressure that you're put under, there is that influence that you have. But also, we know that if your patient asks you specifically and says, you know, what about this medication, you may say, well, it's easier to prescribe you that medication if that's what you really want. But there's actually five things you can do to improve your sleep and actually avoid being on that medication, but we don't get asked for that. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): But I want to be like the lady with the wings.
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SAMIR SINHA (GERIATRICIAN, MOUNT SINAI/UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK): And that's what I hear: Why can't I be like that? But I think it's important to think about the other options. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): David, what do you think? DAVID HENRY (PROFESSOR, DALLA LANA SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO): I would like to focus a little bit on the prices that are being paid. We talked about usage and whether drug use is appropriate. There's also the price that is paid. Canada is paying too much. And if we can just return for a second or two to the idea of a national program, there's a huge advantage in being the sole purchaser on behalf of 35 million people, as it would be with a national program in Canada. And we know from experience you can reduce drug prices by 30, 40 percent. That's billions of dollars a year. WENDY MESLEY (HOST):
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That's a political debate that you have launched and I hope that it gets taken up by the politicians. Who is buying these drugs? We have seen that there are more people having trouble getting drugs, more people using drugs. Who is it? DANIELLE MARTIN (WOMEN'S COLLEGE HOSPITAL): That are taking prescription drugs in Canada? WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Yeah. DANIELLE MARTIN (WOMEN'S COLLEGE HOSPITAL):
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Well, you know, interestingly over the last decade, we have seen an increase in prescription drug use in every single age category. So the answer is we all are. We're all taking more drugs than our equivalent people did a decade ago and I think… WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Teenagers? DANIELLE MARTIN (WOMEN'S COLLEGE HOSPITAL): Absolutely, teenagers and the elderly and everybody in between. And so the question really becomes: Are we any healthier as a result? You know, in some cases we're talking about truly life-saving treatment that are medical breakthroughs and, of course, we all want to see every Canadian have unfettered access to those important treatments. In other cases we may actually be talking about overdiagnosis, overprescription and as you say, Cara, sort of chemical coping of all different kinds. And I think that's what we need to kind of get at and try to tease out. WENDY MESLEY (HOST):
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Well, and the largest group of all on prescription drugs right now, Cara, are the seniors. CARA TANNENBAUM (GERIATRIC PHYSICIAN, PHARMACY CHAIR, UNIVERSITÉ DE MONTRÉAL): The seniors, yes, and I'm very passionate about this topic because sometimes I see patients come into my office on 23 different drug classes, and that's when we don't talk about what drugs should we add but what drugs can we take away, and the concept of de-prescribing. And imagine if we could get people who are on unnecessary drugs, because as you get older you get added this drug and a second drug and this specialist gives you this and that specialist gives you that, but then there starts to be interactions between the different drugs that could cause side effects and hospitalization. And maybe it's time to start asking, well, what's the right drug for you at this time, at this age, with these medical conditions? And personalized medicine is something that we have been talking about. It would be nice if we could introduce that conversation into therapy and not just drug therapy, but all therapy. Maybe the drug isn't needed. Maybe physiotherapy is needed or a psychologist or better exercise or nutrition. So I think it's really a bigger question. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Samir?
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SAMIR SINHA (GERIATRICIAN, MOUNT SINAI/UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK): Exactly. I mean, in my clinic the other day I had a patient who was on eight medications when she came with me, and… WENDY MESLEY (HOST): This is a senior? You deal with seniors as well. SAMIR SINHA (GERIATRICIAN, MOUNT SINAI/UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK): Absolutely. And when she left my office, she was thrilled because she was only on two medications, mainly because some of the medications are prescribed to treat the side effects of other medications, for example, or the indications for those medications were no longer valid in her. But we added some vitamins and we just balanced things out appropriately. And she was thrilled because, as Cara was saying before, the co-pays, the other payments that one needs to pay for medications you don't want to take, that's a problem as well. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): We're going to take a short break, but we have one more discussion area which is: What are the next challenges that Canadians might face with prescription drugs? We'll be right back.
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(Commercial break) WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Welcome back to our "National Checkup" panel. Danielle Martin, Samir Sinha, Cara Tannenbaum and David Henry are all here to talk about the next frontier. So we're hearing all of this exciting new science marches on and there's all of these new drugs, new treatments. Everyone wants them or everyone who needs them wants them, but they're expensive, right, Danielle? DANIELLE MARTIN (WOMEN'S COLLEGE HOSPITAL): They can be extremely expensive. So, you know, what we call these blockbuster drugs coming onto the market, some of them truly do represent breakthroughs in medical treatment and in some cases they can cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. So they really are very expensive. But what I think many people may not realize is that the number of drugs coming out, even the expensive ones that are truly breakthroughs, is still a very small portion of the drugs coming out on the market. Many, many drugs that are being released and are expensive are marginally, if at all, really any better than their predecessor. So just because it's new and fancy and costs a lot doesn't necessarily mean that it's all that much better.
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WENDY MESLEY (HOST): So what's going to happen, David? DAVID HENRY (PROFESSOR, DALLA LANA SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO): We need to find a plan. These drugs may cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Nobody can afford that individually. Tens of thousands, rich people can afford them but the average person cannot. So there's really no way we can cope with these unless we've got a plan and, in my view, it has to be a national plan. And the advantage of that are that when you're buying or you're subsidizing on behalf of 35 million people, you're going to get better prices and your insurance pool that covers these costs is much greater. So the country can afford drugs that individuals can't.
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WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Samir, what do you see as the new frontier here? SAMIR SINHA (GERIATRICIAN, MOUNT SINAI/UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK): I think the new frontier is going to be more personalized treatments in terms of how do we actually treat cancers, how do we treat certain rare conditions with more personalized treatments. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Because it's very exciting, right? You have this cancer that's not that common and then you hear that there's a treatment for it and you want it. SAMIR SINHA (GERIATRICIAN, MOUNT SINAI/UNIVERSITY HEALTH NETWORK): And it has the possibility of alleviating a lot of suffering from unnecessary treatments that may not actually be… you know, be effective. But I think this is the challenge. If we want to be able to afford these, if we actually work together we're actually more able to afford them when we bulk-buy these medications. But the key is going to be that, you know, this is where the future is going and we're going to have to figure out a way to pay for them.
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WENDY MESLEY (HOST): What are you looking forward to? CARA TANNENBAUM (GERIATRIC PHYSICIAN, PHARMACY CHAIR, UNIVERSITÉ DE MONTRÉAL): I'm really looking forward to seeing all these new treatments that we have spent decades researching. You know what the investment in health research has been in order to find new targets for drugs, in order to increase quality of live, in order to cure cancer, and then to send a message, oh, sorry, we're not going to give them to you or you can't afford to pay for them, then I think there is a lack of consistency in the messaging that we're giving to Canadians around equity for health care. So you could get your diagnosis and you could see a physician, but we way not be able to afford treating you. So I think this is something we need to think about it. It's very exciting, I think we live in exciting times, and looking at different funding strategies to make sure that people get the appropriate care that they need at the right time to improve their health is really what we're going to be looking forward to. WENDY MESLEY (HOST):
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Tricky, though. It's a provincial jurisdiction, you've got to get all the provinces to agree to a list, and the list is getting longer. DANIELLE MARTIN (WOMEN'S COLLEGE HOSPITAL): Absolutely. I mean, I think actually one of the big myths out there about drug plans is that higher-quality plans are the ones that cover everything. And, in fact, that's not true. You know, we can use a national plan or a pan- Canadian plan or whatever you want to call it to target our prescribing and guide our prescribing in order to make it more appropriate, and that's another way that we're going to save money in the long run. WENDY MESLEY (HOST): Well, I learned a lot tonight. I hope our audience did too. Thanks so much for being with us. DANIELLE MARTIN (WOMEN'S COLLEGE HOSPITAL): Thank you.