I would like to take you up on your offer which Aaron mentioned to me - regarding helping us research certain topics. We are considering the biogas digester as a viable choice for producing cooking gas - and electricity by burning in an engine. From what I understand, this is a proven technology, and in heavy use in places such as Germany. It seems to us that this is the quickest way for us to go truly off-grid (with local biomass clippings) in our electricity and cooking gas needs. Our specifications are: 1. 5 kW electric continuous power output from generator 2. Biogas for cooking for 24 people 3. Year-round operation (silage feedstock in winter) 4. Primarily grass clippings as feedstock 5. Continuous feed-through system 6. Biogas for space heating and greenhouse heating in winter If you can help us, that would help us to upgrade our infrastructure to sustain 30 people with their electrical and cooking needs by year-end 2013. This could be a major contribution to the success of our project. We further aim to develop gas compression for fueling our car/tractor fleet later in the future - if we gather the sufficient support - by end of 2015. I have added you as an editor for the Biogas project in the Control Panel of our Flashy XM interface -http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Flashy_XM Please familiarize yourself with that interface. The specification for that interface, in development, is at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Flashy_XM_Specification Let me know your thoughts. If you can help us with this, please set up a Skype appointment with us via Aaron. Thanks, Marcin
I just created the diigogroup OSEwatch, and invited Marcin, Aaron, Raph, Rémi, Olivier, to contribute they are in Cc of this email please also give Raphael & Rémi the accessas editor for the Biogas project in the Control Panel of our Flashy XM interface -http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Flashy_XM
and we will start posting URl on the topic, with biogas I suggest we also accept content in French and German, and English speakers can use googletranslate ?
deadline for a first result mof SoA : 7 days from today on, the 14th evening, at least 20 posts and an email to synthetize what we found please help us in defining if possible even more in details what you search : experts ? methods, plans for DiY biogas digerstor, other points ? what have you already bookmarked/discover ? you can post this also in your Flashy XM interface -http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Flashy_XM and Raphael will also post in your flashy xm interface the SoA draft based on at least 20 sources, if he confirms he accepts the challenge in answering this email,
It's now D-2 before the deadliine for the first step of this first online research mission of Yorg team for OSEwatch. We propose to reformulate the mission the following way : our goal on this first step of 7 days is A) to find online at least 20 experts on biogas digester, B) to have 3 emails sent for first contact to 3 of them, as a trial experiment to see what they think about these specifications. Then, depending on their answer, we could contact the 20 of them.
To reach this, Raphael and myself, we intend to keep on searching for other pionneers in DIY biogas digester in the next 48 hours.
To start this new process of contacting experts ans asking them about the realism of the specification, I just sent the message below to Sandru Ovidiu, the first contact I found in the web while searching.
This message can be used as a tool/model to inspire other similar messages to be sent to other experts found while browsing the web...
We found your website while searching for biogas digester experts. We are co-leaders of the Ynternet.org foundation, a team of volunteer supporting opensource non-software project worldwide.
OSE co-leaders demanded us to help them finding experts able to build a plan for a biogas digester with the following specifications :
1. 5 kW electric continuous power output from generator 2. Biogas for cooking for 24 people 3. Year-round operation (silage feedstock in winter) 4. Primarily grass clippings as feedstock 5. Continuous feed-through system 6. Biogas for space heating and greenhouse heating in winter
If you can help us, that would help us to upgrade our infrastructure to sustain 30 people with their electrical and cooking needs by year-end 2013. This could be a major contribution to the success of our project. We further aim to develop gas compression for fueling our car/tractor fleet later in the future - if we gather the sufficient support - by end of 2015.
What you can do to start this cooperation, is to join us in the discussion here : http://groups.diigo.com/group/os_ewatch/content/biogas-digester-6037429 (anyone can join) ... and post more about what you think regarding these specification : - is it feasable on your opinion ? - can you help online ? - can you suggest contacts with other experts who could help online or spent some times in Missouri-USA to help creating physically the digester with there specs ? - any other contributions (suggestions of experts, websites...)
Kind regards and thanks for your great optimism, we love it :-)
Théo Bondolfi, Ynternet.org supporting OSE :-) Phone +41763769776
I would just ask for one more detail. In which part of the world is this project located ? Biogas digester might be influenced by ambiant temperature, that's why I'm asking this.
Thanks for asking. As far as I know (Marcin, Aaron, correct me if I'm wrong), it is planned for first experiment in Missouri, USA, and then spread in reasonnably any place in the world (not extreme conditions though).
If there must be differences influenced by ambient temperature, it should be a variable parameter mentionned in the manual on how to build such DIY biogas Digester.
Hello again. The first results of this research, as a primary State of the Art (SoA), have been published here : http://bit.ly/NApltw
Besides, I took the initiative to send an email of first contact (similar as the one sent to Sandru above, to Biogas Bob Hamburg. In the SoA we got by now, Bob is considered as one of the eminence in the Biogas digester environments.
Looking forward to get Marcin and/or Aaron feedbacks.
Here is the answer from Bob Hamburg, and my answer to him afterwords
On August 15th 2012, Bob Hamburg wrote :
> Dear Theo, and others, > Finally! I am quite glad to hear from yo'al. It was many months ago that I saw a TED talk on the global village construction set. I tried to make contact at that time. It seemed to me like you might need some sort of fuel to run all your fantastic equipment. All this mechanical equipment seemed great, but I thought there might be a place for a bit more biology, yea? Let me just present a few first thoughts. I consider digesters as much more like domestic animals than technological manifestations. I seek to raise shit-eating fire-breathing dragons -- in symbiotic integration with other biological production systems.
It takes about 15-20 cubic feet of biogas per KWh. A 5 KW generator system would thus require (15-20 cu ft X 5 KW X 24 hr) 1800-2400 cu ft per day [around 60 cu meters]. i.e. quite a lot. A healty, well-fed and watered, and warm [95-100 degrees F] digester can be expected to produce about 1 volume of gas per day per volume of digester. With these figures, it would appear that quite a large digester would be needed just for electricity. Although some of the energy lost through transition from gas to electricity can be recovered by using engine coolant to heat the digester, direct burning is far the most efficient use of biogas. I am biased toward wind and photovoltaics for electricity. As to your other specifications, they are certainly feasible -- given adequate...interest. I continue to be taken with the many mutually beneficial thermal interactions possible through greenhouse-digester integration. Much of my current efforts are toward a digester set in the ground under growing tables in a greenhouse. That, and increasing recognition of the potential for nutrient-rich digester effluents in further production.
One other [priliminary?] note: I suspect that regeneratively produced alcohol, a la David Blume or whatever, is more appropriate for mobile needs than biogas. Note that propane liquifies at about 280 psi. Methane liquifies at about 5000 psi. I.E. It takes huge energies to compress biogas to make it useable for mobile needs. And huge bags of low pressure gas are...clunky? to say the least -- especially in the wind.
While I seem to be able to deal with email, 'fraid I'm still abysmally incompetent [and quite hesitant] at all other computer networking, but your certainly welcome to use any of this anyway you see fit.
Since I see most "experts" as learning/knowing more and more about less and less....I'd almost rather be viewed as a fanatic.
I do hope I can be of some service in furthering your efforts. I actually have a contracted book to write these days -- Dragon Husbandry: The Why and Wherefore of Biogas Systems -- but I would be interested in visiting the Missouri farm. Wonder what train connections are like?
Sincerely,
Biogas Bob Hamburg
Omega-Alpha Recycling Systems Symbiotically Integrated Anaerobic Digestion Biological Repair NOT a technological fix When you're up the creek, you need some OARS! www.omega-alpharecycling.com
================================0
MY ANSWER TO BOB
Hey Bob
Really great to read you :-)
Thanks a lot for your first contributions, and also for your preliminary note on regeneratively produced alcohol. Yes, one of the key issue is to succeed in chosing the best tool to produce energy.
I'm not a tech-expert, neather is Raphael nor Aaron. We are facilitating the identification of experts, and bringing them to collaborate online or on site in Missouri at OSE headquarters.
Marcin and some other industrial designers and self-made technicians are co-working on the GVCs development, helped by quite a few facilitators such as Ynternet.org team (Raphael & me). There will soon give a a signal and enter into technical questions.
I'm located in Switzerland and Brazil, Raphael is in France, and OSE headquarters are in Missouri USA.
So for the next step of a potential mutual support, two simple questions :
1. Could you imagine having a skype talk with Marcin or a delegated of OSE he will point, about your vision of the best method to provide energy for such village under construction. For example, about biogas digester versus regeneratively produced alcool for OSE villages ? If yes, what is your skype account ? Marcin's skype account is marcin_ose And/or could you start by writing in short terms your opinion about strengh and weaknesses ?
2. Where are your located ? In USA it seems (to be Honest, I initially thought that you were living in Hamburg Germany!)
Can we maybe ask you to fulfill this form : Click here to fulfill the OSE Flash Mob Form OSE Flash Mobs are impromptu problem solving sessions between remote collaborators. Here is a video explaining how they work: Click here to watch the OSE Flash Mob Video (explaining why and how Flash Mobs)
Finally, I noticed that you're not an expert in computing/internet, and we understand very well. I just wish to point you that OSE intention are pure since all the products and plans are under a free licence, aloowing anybody to access, reproduce and modify the machines,
Thanks in advance, your work is awsome, kind regards
started by Théo Bondolfi on 07 Aug 12
I would like to take you up on your offer which Aaron mentioned to me - regarding helping us research certain topics.
We are considering the biogas digester as a viable choice for producing cooking gas - and electricity by burning in an engine. From what I understand, this is a proven technology, and in heavy use in places such as Germany. It seems to us that this is the quickest way for us to go truly off-grid (with local biomass clippings) in our electricity and cooking gas needs.
Our specifications are:
1. 5 kW electric continuous power output from generator
2. Biogas for cooking for 24 people
3. Year-round operation (silage feedstock in winter)
4. Primarily grass clippings as feedstock
5. Continuous feed-through system
6. Biogas for space heating and greenhouse heating in winter
If you can help us, that would help us to upgrade our infrastructure to sustain 30 people with their electrical and cooking needs by year-end 2013. This could be a major contribution to the success of our project. We further aim to develop gas compression for fueling our car/tractor fleet later in the future - if we gather the sufficient support - by end of 2015.
I have added you as an editor for the Biogas project in the Control Panel of our Flashy XM interface -http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Flashy_XM
Please familiarize yourself with that interface. The specification for that interface, in development, is at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Flashy_XM_Specification
Let me know your thoughts. If you can help us with this, please set up a Skype appointment with us via Aaron.
Thanks,
Marcin
they are in Cc of this email
please also give Raphael & Rémi the accessas editor for the Biogas project in the Control Panel of our Flashy XM interface -http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Flashy_XM
and we will start posting URl on the topic, with biogas
I suggest we also accept content in French and German, and English speakers can use googletranslate ?
deadline for a first result mof SoA : 7 days from today on, the 14th evening, at least 20 posts and an email to synthetize what we found
please help us in defining if possible even more in details what you search : experts ? methods, plans for DiY biogas digerstor, other points ?
what have you already bookmarked/discover ?
you can post this also in your Flashy XM interface -http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Flashy_XM
and Raphael will also post in your flashy xm interface the SoA draft based on at least 20 sources, if he confirms he accepts the challenge in answering this email,
B) to have 3 emails sent for first contact to 3 of them, as a trial experiment to see what they think about these specifications. Then, depending on their answer, we could contact the 20 of them.
To reach this, Raphael and myself, we intend to keep on searching for other pionneers in DIY biogas digester in the next 48 hours.
To start this new process of contacting experts ans asking them about the realism of the specification, I just sent the message below to Sandru Ovidiu, the first contact I found in the web while searching.
This message can be used as a tool/model to inspire other similar messages to be sent to other experts found while browsing the web...
==================================================
reference : http://www.greenoptimistic.com/contact-us/
Hi Sandru !
We found your website while searching for biogas digester experts.
We are co-leaders of the Ynternet.org foundation, a team of volunteer supporting opensource non-software project worldwide.
Here we are currently helping a great project, the http://OpenSourceEcology.org team.
Look at their website !
OSE co-leaders demanded us to help them finding experts able to build a plan for a biogas digester with the following specifications :
1. 5 kW electric continuous power output from generator
2. Biogas for cooking for 24 people
3. Year-round operation (silage feedstock in winter)
4. Primarily grass clippings as feedstock
5. Continuous feed-through system
6. Biogas for space heating and greenhouse heating in winter
If you can help us, that would help us to upgrade our infrastructure to sustain 30 people with their electrical and cooking needs by year-end 2013. This could be a major contribution to the success of our project. We further aim to develop gas compression for fueling our car/tractor fleet later in the future - if we gather the sufficient support - by end of 2015.
What you can do to start this cooperation, is to join us in the discussion here :
http://groups.diigo.com/group/os_ewatch/content/biogas-digester-6037429
(anyone can join)
... and post more about what you think regarding these specification :
- is it feasable on your opinion ?
- can you help online ?
- can you suggest contacts with other experts who could help online or spent some times in Missouri-USA to help creating physically the digester with there specs ?
- any other contributions (suggestions of experts, websites...)
Kind regards and thanks for your great optimism, we love it :-)
Théo Bondolfi, Ynternet.org supporting OSE :-)
Phone +41763769776
==================================================
I would just ask for one more detail. In which part of the world is this project located ? Biogas digester might be influenced by ambiant temperature, that's why I'm asking this.
Olivier
If there must be differences influenced by ambient temperature, it should be a variable parameter mentionned in the manual on how to build such DIY biogas Digester.
http://bit.ly/NApltw
Besides, I took the initiative to send an email of first contact (similar as the one sent to Sandru above, to Biogas Bob Hamburg. In the SoA we got by now, Bob is considered as one of the eminence in the Biogas digester environments.
Looking forward to get Marcin and/or Aaron feedbacks.
Kindly yours
Théo & Ynternet team
On August 15th 2012, Bob Hamburg wrote :
> Dear Theo, and others,
> Finally! I am quite glad to hear from yo'al. It was many months ago that I saw a TED talk on the global village construction set. I tried to make contact at that time. It seemed to me like you might need some sort of fuel to run all your fantastic equipment. All this mechanical equipment seemed great, but I thought there might be a place for a bit more biology, yea?
Let me just present a few first thoughts. I consider digesters as much more like domestic animals than technological manifestations. I seek to raise shit-eating fire-breathing dragons -- in symbiotic integration with other biological production systems.
It takes about 15-20 cubic feet of biogas per KWh. A 5 KW generator system would thus require (15-20 cu ft X 5 KW X 24 hr) 1800-2400 cu ft per day [around 60 cu meters]. i.e. quite a lot. A healty, well-fed and watered, and warm [95-100 degrees F] digester can be expected to produce about 1 volume of gas per day per volume of digester. With these figures, it would appear that quite a large digester would be needed just for electricity. Although some of the energy lost through transition from gas to electricity can be recovered by using engine coolant to heat the digester, direct burning is far the most efficient use of biogas. I am biased toward wind and photovoltaics for electricity.
As to your other specifications, they are certainly feasible -- given adequate...interest. I continue to be taken with the many mutually beneficial thermal interactions possible through greenhouse-digester integration. Much of my current efforts are toward a digester set in the ground under growing tables in a greenhouse. That, and increasing recognition of the potential for nutrient-rich digester effluents in further production.
One other [priliminary?] note: I suspect that regeneratively produced alcohol, a la David Blume or whatever, is more appropriate for mobile needs than biogas. Note that propane liquifies at about 280 psi. Methane liquifies at about 5000 psi. I.E. It takes huge energies to compress biogas to make it useable for mobile needs. And huge bags of low pressure gas are...clunky? to say the least -- especially in the wind.
While I seem to be able to deal with email, 'fraid I'm still abysmally incompetent [and quite hesitant] at all other computer networking, but your certainly welcome to use any of this anyway you see fit.
Since I see most "experts" as learning/knowing more and more about less and less....I'd almost rather be viewed as a fanatic.
I do hope I can be of some service in furthering your efforts. I actually have a contracted book to write these days -- Dragon Husbandry: The Why and Wherefore of Biogas Systems -- but I would be interested in visiting the Missouri farm. Wonder what train connections are like?
Sincerely,
Biogas Bob Hamburg
Omega-Alpha Recycling Systems
Symbiotically Integrated Anaerobic Digestion
Biological Repair NOT a technological fix
When you're up the creek, you need some OARS!
www.omega-alpharecycling.com
================================0
MY ANSWER TO BOB
Hey Bob
Really great to read you :-)
Thanks a lot for your first contributions, and also for your preliminary note on regeneratively produced alcohol.
Yes, one of the key issue is to succeed in chosing the best tool to produce energy.
I'm not a tech-expert, neather is Raphael nor Aaron.
We are facilitating the identification of experts, and bringing them to collaborate online or on site in Missouri at OSE headquarters.
Marcin and some other industrial designers and self-made technicians are co-working on the GVCs development, helped by quite a few facilitators such as Ynternet.org team (Raphael & me). There will soon give a a signal and enter into technical questions.
I'm located in Switzerland and Brazil, Raphael is in France, and OSE headquarters are in Missouri USA.
So for the next step of a potential mutual support, two simple questions :
1. Could you imagine having a skype talk with Marcin or a delegated of OSE he will point, about your vision of the best method to provide energy for such village under construction. For example, about biogas digester versus regeneratively produced alcool for OSE villages ?
If yes, what is your skype account ?
Marcin's skype account is marcin_ose
And/or could you start by writing in short terms your opinion about strengh and weaknesses ?
2. Where are your located ?
In USA it seems (to be Honest, I initially thought that you were living in Hamburg Germany!)
Can we maybe ask you to fulfill this form :
Click here to fulfill the OSE Flash Mob Form
OSE Flash Mobs are impromptu problem solving sessions between remote collaborators. Here is a video explaining how they work:
Click here to watch the OSE Flash Mob Video (explaining why and how Flash Mobs)
Finally, I noticed that you're not an expert in computing/internet, and we understand very well.
I just wish to point you that OSE intention are pure since all the products and plans are under a free licence, aloowing anybody to access, reproduce and modify the machines,
Thanks in advance, your work is awsome, kind regards
Théo