Howl of the Canyon Wolf: Ne-Do-Ba | Vermont Native Justice Abenaki - 1 views
shared by Nancy Lecompte on 10 Aug 11
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For much of its tenure, Ne-do-ba seemed to be a decent source of internet-grade genealogical information and remained aloof from the identity politics that infested Vermont Indian recognition.
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Nancy Lecompte on 22 Sep 11We have not made any comments about any living person. We simply state that oral history by itself can not be accepted as proof of anything without some historical documentation to back it up. We have also stated that being a Native descendant does not give people the right to the special privileges provided to historical Native communities that have endured through out history. Our feelings on this matter apply to all of North America, not just the Vermont groups and they are simply the OPINION of this organization.
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She never experienced rejection by Vermont Abenakis like bloggers salmon, Karen Mica or Brad Barratt.
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So you admit members of your community have been "rejected" after being accepted! In the Native communities that I am familiar with you are born into them and you belong to them for life, regardless of your personal views or actions.
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There is some evidence of somewhat contentious correspondence between the wolf and Vermont Indigenous people
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"some evidence of somewhat contentious correspondence" - what sort of gobbledeegook is that? ;) We are not magicians! If there is no evidence to support a claim being made, we make that clear to the people we correspond with. We are sorry if people do not like what the historical document has to say about their family history or if we can not provide folks with the answers they are looking for. If they don't like it, they do have the option of doing the research themselves and proving their position.
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and attacked its author in a tirade extending well beyond debate of the original issue– by attempting to debunk the paper’s data and conclusions
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The author of this paper used our organization to further his own agenda by making false statements about our beliefs. He never contacted this organization to determine what our beliefs on the subject were. We simply demonstrated this research paper contained other questionable statements. We highlighted only a small sampling of those additional questionable statements.
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“Just look at the original data that she uses to support her attack and see what you find – just don’t accept anything at face value”
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Yes please do! We stand by our statements but we always encourage people to look at the data and form their own conclusions. That means doing your own research and looking at their data as well as ours. Don't just take our word or their word for something. Look into it yourself before you form any conclusion about the reliability of the data behind statements.
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We can accept a “conservative” approach as a beginning point for an organization that is ignorant of the on – the – ground Native situation in Vermont;
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We have listed the known and documented historical communities that have existed throughout history to the present. We have reviewed the data these Vermont groups have presented to the BIA and the State of Vermont and found them to be seriously lacking in proof of their assertions. We do list Missisquoi as a prior or "historic" Native Community on our website and we do have information on a number of "off-res" families from Vermont that are documented as Native. Referring to us a "ignorant" because we do not believe your unproven theories demonstrates your own ignorance and prejudices.
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She does not list who, in her opinion, the reinvented Abenaki are.
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They know who they are! But I though it was pretty clear when I referred to them as "people making false claims about their ancestry". I can be more specific. Anyone insisting they deserve special recognition and privileges from a government entity but are unwilling or unable to prove their ancestry claims with proper documentation or at least well researched and properly argued theories.
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we may presume that anyone who is not from a recognized tribe listed above
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Assume what you want but that is not our position. We will not discuss anyone's ancestry unless they PUBLICLY ATTACK US first.
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who has the temerity to question her philosophy or conclusions
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Like you are attacking this organization because we have the guts to publicly disagree with your unproven theories & conclusions ;)
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attempt to use internet genealogy to discredit competing views
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Here at Ne-Do-Ba we use historical documents to support our findings. Anyone can view these same documents to form their own conclusions. Too bad the same can not be said about our friends in these Vermont culture clubs. Many of them either hide their genealogy or make it up, at least we put it out there for the general public to see and comment on and inform us when we do make errors (yes we do make errors - we are human after all)
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Nowhere in the Ne-do-ba website, was there any evidence of a concerted attempt to discover or understand an independent local Abenaki Vermont community existence.
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That is correct. Our website does not show our efforts. We do not create web pages for all research in progress or that provide no real information. This does not mean we have not attempted to communicate in private with people making these claims. We have actively tried to document their claims since the beginning of our existence. The fact of the matter is - they refuse to engage in "critical thinking". Any position that does not agree with theirs is simply dismissed as ignorant or bigoted.
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But unlike previous scholars who had jumped at the chance to visit and learn, the Wolf refused unless Chief Doucet paid her way and expenses.
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This nonprofit organization has a shoestring budget and a stated policy concerning outreach programs. We do not charge money for presentations but we do require room and board if over night, meals during a visit, and reimbursement for transportation costs. It is fortunate for them that other "scholars" either live nearer to them or have a better financial situation. Furthermore, why should we have to travel to them to learn about the historical documents they claim to have. This documentation should be made available to the public in the first place.
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Gordon Day in his Identify of the St. Francis Indians, the “Joseph” name is an old known Odanak name
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This is true, but it is also true the name is found in other Native communities as well. They neglect to point that out. Regardless, we have no data that places this woman in any specific Native community or anywhere outside of Vermont and her birth place is given as Vermont. So she and her children are Vermont based Native Americans in our OPINION. They base many of their assumptions on far less evidence so what is their complaint here.
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how can possible “mixed blood out of Canada” sire an indigenous (not looking to origin outside of Vermont) Vermont family?
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Excuse me, but it is the WIFE we claimed was Vermont Abenaki! If the mother and children are born in Vermont and identified as "Indian" in the census it would seem to me they should all be counted as VERMONT ABENAKI. Oh, but none of the descendants belong to any of these groups so it is not important to include them. ;)
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His first wife was very likely an Abenaki woman from that region.
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So as you can see from internal evidence cited in the Ne-do-ba website, both lineages probably originate in Canada — exactly Wiseman’s point.
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But there is no proof that either of these women (and we were only commenting about the women of these families!) were from Canada? Why are you claiming these are not Vermont Native families? Oh yes now I remember - you are trying to prove I am ignorant about Vermont Native families. Seems counter productive, like shooting yourself in the foot.
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From our perspective, the Peenamin McKenzie School leister and the Penobscot examples are stylistically unlike the Western Abenaki type used by Missisquoi Abenaki Ed Hakey of Swanton, VT, before WWII
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But you provide no discussion and present no "comparative, well documented" presentation of why your "perspective" should be accepted as fact or what makes this one "stylistically unlike" others. You just want us to accept your theory without question. Furthermore, the leister I questioned is described in the petition as "found in a garage sale in Newport, VT". They further state "Unfortunately, the owner was dismissive of the spear, and did not know what it was used for, but only that it came from his father's house in Lake Park (North Derby)". My point was this spear is not proof of anything until you can document who made it and where. It could have been made by an Iroquois in New York, a Penobscot in Maine, or a non-Native sportsman who saw the tool in a book and copy it.
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Anti-intellectualism: the suppression of scholarly debate
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Excellent choice of quote. Sounds exactly like what your one sided bias debate here is attempting to do.
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is the “fair use” doctrine
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And as long as you follow that doctrine properly quoting and clearly stating where the material you are quoting came from you are safe. Your use of an improper web page address is dangerously close to violation of this, but if anyone is serious about following the link they can figure it out. the proper citation link is http://nedoba.org/topic_wiseman.html
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Thus we must conclude that the wolf is a typical, academically minimalist blog denizen.
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Yep - that's me. I state very clearly in my blog that I am self educated. Does that mean my work and opinions are of no use to others? That I am not capable of performing valid research just because I didn't go to college? Does having a PHD after a name make that person better than me? Does it mean they are super human, never make errors, never come to erroneous conclusions, and are not capable of having any undesirable human traits such as arrogance or deceit?
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the risk of becoming so wedded to one’s models of reality
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The only thing this organization is wedded to is accuracy and truth concerning the Native history of the northeast. I have publicly stated that if someone has documentation to show we have made an error, please share it with us. We welcome it, but no proof nor even scholarly dialog has ever come about. Don't expect us to accept what you say just because YOU say it. We don't recognize your authority until you provide historical documentation to back up the claims you make.
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The “Canyon wolf” alias is a typical example of what has been called “assumed post-Indian names,” lent to give more of an “Indian” feel to the personal identity.
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Real adult behavior? This just goes to show the nature of the beast we am dealing with here. Are you a 10 years old making fun of someone's name on the playground? This coming from a person with such an inflated ego and arrogance they think they have a right to use the name of an Abenaki culture hero.
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She made up her name
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Nope - it was gifted to me, I didn't have any say. Have you done my genealogy? Do you know for a fact that I have no Native ancestry anywhere in my tree? If so, please share this research with me, because I still have a number of brick walls in my family tree.
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Everything she does, she does for money
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Everything I do, I do as a volunteer. Any money I do receive personally for presentations goes directly to Ne-Do-Ba. The only thing I get is mileage reimbursement. This is all part of the financial record of Ne-Do-Ba. I don't collect any rent for the use of office space, file cabinets, computers, Internet, etc. etc. which I provide to the organization. How can someone say they know me and then claim I do things only for money?
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she said she was trying to connect her geneaology to C.A.Stevens of Norway, Maine
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And you say you know me? So sorry, but my Stevens line comes from Greene ME and Charlton, MA and I have ALWAYS known that. I have never had any reason to believe that line had any Native ancestry. I have never tried to connect my Stevens family to the ones in Norway, ME. I did work on that Norway family for a person who wrote to Ne-Do-Ba asking for assistance. Perhaps this person is one of those I have tried to help in the past but was not able to provide them with the answer they demanded, so they have become angry with me. Nothing this person says indicates she knows me even on a very casual basis. It is just so darn easy to make claims about another person and hide behind a screen name instead of owning your words personally. This person is just showing the true colors of these groups. Just make it up as you go and don't worry about truth, it's no longer important to any more.
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I can’t even imagine why anyone would care about her thoughts on anything beyond history.
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And that is exactly what I am doing - addressing the accuracy of the history they present and not charging anyone a single penny for it.
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There actually is no documentation anywhere that I know of to support her assertion that Edward, Sr.’s “first wife was very likely an Abenaki woman.”
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Neither I nor Ne-Do-Ba have every stated there was historical documentation or proof of the family's claim. We have stated on our website the family is "UNCONFIRMED but likely" and clearly stated "at this time all evidence is circumstantial".
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I’d like to know the source of the photo and identification
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Well, all you have to do is ask. We received the photo from his descend here in Maine. We do not post the names of living people on the Internet, but we do have permission to share the name of the descendant in private e-mail.
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clearly implying on that particular website that Native American descent has been proven for her?
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And yet you just stated that we classified the family as "very likely". You are forming your own conclusions and they are not based on what we are saying. It certainly is not proven and that is the purpose of presenting it publicly. In hopes of getting living descendants involved in researching the family to determine if it is true or not.
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but let’s make sure we have the proper supporting evidence before putting people into family trees
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If she had taken the time to read our research journal blog she would have answers to her questions. And if she has concerns about the identity of Edward's wife as Native, she could have the decency to speak with us directly rather than posting a comment on some other blog. We did not put her ancestor into this tree without supporting documentation and she has clearly stated she is a descendant of Edward Sr. so where is her problem?
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