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Liu He

Boeder - 6 views

firstmonday.org/...1200

shared by Liu He on 21 Nov 11 - Cached
  • Habermas
  • Strukturwandel der Öffentlichkeit
  • yet their format effectively prevents interaction and deprives the public of the opportunity to say something and to disagree
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      i'm confused as to how electronic mass media prevents interaction. I guess its in comparison to meeting in the salons? 
    • Howard Rheingold
      Howard Rheingold on 25 Nov 11
       
      from Habermas view, the way that more people were influenced by radio, print, and the nascent television culture by a few who controlled the programming, combined with the emerging craft of public relations, with all the transmission of information going one-way from the few to the many. Habermas might see the #OWS as more akin to the salons -- the part where people engage in rational critical debate about the issues that effect their lives. But what Habermas didn't count on and personally refused to answer to me was the effect of Internet-based media on the public sphere. If he has a clue, he isn't talking. And I suspect that he lacks a clue. He once said that he doubted real discourse could happen in "a series of chat rooms." I've learned over the years that "series of chat rooms" is a signal that the person expressing an opinion about social media actually knows next to nothing about the subject. More interesting might be what Adorno and Horkheimer had to say.
  • ...40 more annotations...
  • advertising
  • the media serve as vehicles for generating and managing consensus and promoting capitalist culture rather than fulfill their original function as organs of public debate
  • arguments are transmuted into symbols to which one cannot respond by arguing but only by identifying with them.
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      maybe this is the answer to my question above
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      I agree that it is difficult to have true debates with electronic media when it is ultimately controlled by someone else. How much freedom can you have when the tools you are using are monitored? But I think social media plays a large role in organizing people to participate in the real world public sphere.
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 06 Dec 11
       
      That's interesting. Who are those using the Internet? What do they want to use Internet for? What can they achieve?
  • critical publicity distinct from the state and the economy
  • "critical theory"
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      If you're curious about Critical Theory, there is a course offered next term: http://cl.ly/Byxe . Its called Critical Pedagogy, but it will be a great introduction to critical theory.
  • cooperation rather than competition
  • Mitchell Stephens
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      prof at the ed. school at Stanford
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      I should add that Habermas is still writing and publishing, including on issues of around media:  Political Communication in Media Society: Does Democracy Still Enjoy an Epistemic Dimension? The Impact of Normative Theory on Empirical Research. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2885.2006.00280.x/full
  • The prospect of the technical capabilities of a near–ubiquitous high–bandwidth Net in the hands of a small number of commercial interests has dire political implications. Whoever gains the political edge on this technology will be able to use the technology to consolidate power.
  • "the Internet is dominated by white, well off, English speaking, educated males, most of whom are USA citizens,"
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      I don't have recent numbers, but this has changed significantly since 1996. Although there is still an imbalance, I am sure the demographic that has access is not as easy to define as it was in the mid-90s
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      I found this link - it seems the majority of internet users are in Asia. I wondered why I don't come across more Chinese sites. Perhaps it's because I don't seek them out particularly being an English speaker. But maybe it's not really the users that are important. I might argue that it's the producers of content that are highly affecting the discourse online and the demographics described here are fairly accurate. It's one thing to have access to the internet and be a consumer of content, but another to have the time, energy and be educated enough to contribute in meaningful ways.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      I would also add the power of (wielded by) search to this discussion.
    • alperin
      alperin on 27 Nov 11
       
      I once asked the head of Google Scholar about adding a 'language' feature on the search. He replied: "can you think of an example where your search does not define the language you want results in?" ... i.e. if you searched for chinese words, you'd get chinese results.
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 06 Dec 11
       
      Language could be a barrier to forming "one" Internet that involves all participants in the world. Otherwise we are unable to communicate effectively.
  • "What public relations does, in entering public debate, is to disguise the interests it represents — cloaking them in appeals such as ‘public welfare’ and the ‘national interest’ — thus making contemporary debate a faked version"
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      I like the use of 'fake' here
  • the media are the public sphere
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      do you agree?
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      Not completely, although this might change after our class when we talk about the definition of public sphere. I think the public sphere is free of the political influence that can be found in popular media, but media does drive topics of debate in the public sphere and can be a forum for discussion. But my feeling is that conversations in the public sphere lead to political action and I'm not sure that is congruent with media that is influenced by political parties
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      Given that this article was published in 2005, I am surprised by the inclusion of this outdated notion. Does the author think its accurate? Did the reviewers also?
    • alperin
      alperin on 21 Nov 11
       
      This reminds me of Francis Fukuyama's End of History. Somehow supposes that liberal democracy is the best form of government, and that we can only hope to refine it/tweak it. If we assume this is true, then past forms of democracy seem like a fair basis of comparison. I am not a fukuyamaist.  http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/rizkhan/2010/11/201011111191189923.html
  • The concept of the civil society appears to be dated in what is essentially a network society.
  • unitary character of the public sphere
  • transforming
  • In a sense, the public sphere has always been virtual: Its meaning lies in its abstraction.
    • Howard Rheingold
      Howard Rheingold on 27 Nov 11
       
      "The public sphere," like "democracy" is a reification: there's no real "thing" there. It's an abstraction to describe a bundle of interrelated behaviors and situations that do happen: people either do or do not have freedom from fear of arrest when making public political statements; governments either do or do not let people know how decisions are made; people do or do not discuss issues that concern them; "public opinion" (another reification) either does or does not influence policy. Taken together, these constitute the idea of the public sphere. That it is a bundle of ideas, and therefore "virtual," does not mean it is unreal.
  • some ideas are more useful than others
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      I do find it's easy to find validation for your ideas on the internet because so many people are involved. And some ideas are just not the best...
  • consumerism poses a threat to the public sphere
  • a mode of discourse is already established, which actively discourages other modes
  • New communications technologies are being used in ways that extend democratic communication practices. As networks become structurally decentralised, ever wider publics gain access to them in ways that lead to an increase in the rate and density of public exchange.
  • lost much of its original political character in favour of commercialism and entertainment.
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      How much of politics today would you qualify as commercialism and entertainment? 
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 06 Dec 11
       
      Journalism may be in bigger crisis in terms of that
  • public debate has shifted from the dissemination of reliable information to the formation of public opinion
  • New forms of citizenship and public life are simultaneously enabled by new technology and restricted by market power and surveillance.
  • a cathartic role, allowing the public to feel involved rather than to advance actual participation
  • public sphere is not just a "marketplace of ideas" or an "information exchange depot," but also a major vehicle for generating and distributing culture.
  • "transparency"
  • tendency towards concentration of power when no adequate measures are taken to counteract this process
  • Theoretically, a network is both able to disperse and to concentrate power.
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      Is this operating under the assumption of one constant network? It seems that new technologies allow for the rapid rise, fall, and constant creation of new networks possible - which seems to counteract this tendency.
  • transnational and specialist news media increasingly serve a well–educated elite, while national and local media increasingly cater to the taste of disempowered social groups for whom globalisation only poses a threat
  • Dominant currents in the philosophy of technology thus essentialise technology, decontextualise it, and abstract it from culture and human meaning
  • it is on the verge of extinction.
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 06 Dec 11
       
      Isn't it exagerated?
  • public sphere’s pre–eminent institution, the press
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 06 Dec 11
       
      Is journalism today still the key to the formation of public opinion?
  • If their ability to form political will, debate issues and influence society is expanded by the Internet, this is no way resembles a truly participative discourse of democracy
  • Notions of commodification and commercialisation still have their relevance in today’s mass communication theory: They pose a permanent threat to the cultural quality of media products and cannot be ignored.
  • He believes that the Internet can reverse the tide of public disdain for the media by providing a user experience that is immediate, interactive, and intimate. Bardoel (1996) points out that because of the increasing individualization and segmentation in communication such notions as "community" and "public debate" should be taken less for granted
  • "instrumental journalism."
  • Publicity loses its critical function in favour of a staged display; 4
  • Rather, the public sphere transcends these physical appearances as an abstract forum for dialogue and ideology–free public opinion, a lively debate on multiple levels within society. Interesting in this regard is that the German word for public relations is Öffentlichkeitsarbeit, which could both be translated as "work within the public sphere" or "work on the public sphere."
Liu He

Howard Rheingold - Why the History of the Public Sphere Matters - 4 views

blip.tv/...rs-in-the-internet-age-1709056

public sphere democracy public opinion

shared by Liu He on 25 Nov 11 - No Cached
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      I wonder how the public sphere as a democratic process will play out as in a global internet where other countries do not value democracy in the same way
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 27 Nov 11
       
      I think there is a difference between the interest of the dictators and the interest of public in some countries. For the people, knowledge could be power.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      It seems that the examples pointed out have in common people that had the time to have these discussions in the public sphere, such as the more affluent or educated. Will the internet as the public sphere allow an average working person to also participate?
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      The idea of a life-or-death need to participate is also interesting. Are there other means of moving large groups of people from theory to action? 
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      A general question - has there been any other instances in human history of many-to-many communication?
    • Howard Rheingold
      Howard Rheingold on 25 Nov 11
       
      Science fiction fans used to circulate letters, and Joseph Priestley got the system of scientific peer review started by sending letters to everybody who experimented with electricity, asking for details about their experimental equipment, methods, and results, then circulated these details among the community of "electricians" and recirculated their replies. But this wasn't really many-to-many, and of course, very slow. I can't really think of much else. Anybody?
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      Does the public school system count? 
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 27 Nov 11
       
      The Public Forum of ancient Rome? It is a public meeting place for open discussion and the center of Roman public life for centuires.
    • alperin
      alperin on 27 Nov 11
       
      the first academic journals, including Philosophical Transactions, were a result of letters circulated by Oldenburg, to the different scientists (like Newton). Like the electrician's letters Howard describes above, this was slow, but it was many-to-many, and the results were eventually circulated via printed works.
  • ...1 more annotation...
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 27 Nov 11
       
      Lippermann raised the question whether the public is educated enough to self-govern. In his words,the unsuspecting public is a herd of sheep and could be easily misled. John Dewey said in response that this is perhaps why we need better journalism. Is this also the case in the Internet age? Is the public armed with the new technology necessarily more educated? Does journalism have a new role?
    • alperin
      alperin on 27 Nov 11
       
      Dewey also promoted free public education, under the belief that the way to a healthy public sphere was through educating the masses.
alperin

Boston Review - Cass Sunstein: The Daily We - 4 views

bostonreview.net/...sunstein.php

democracy public sphere community internet media free speech

shared by alperin on 25 Nov 11 - Cached
  • increasingly engaged in a process of “personalization” that limits their exposure to topics and points of view of their own choosing
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      Validating what you already believe in. We had a discussion about this when talking about why/when people use peer recommendation sites like Yelp
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 26 Nov 11
       
      A cycle of bias!
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      It's interesting that almost none of these services (aside from Tivo and Intertainer, Inc?) are still around. But the ideas that they had about personalization have lived on. They had the right idea, perhaps before anyone else. Why did they fail?
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 26 Nov 11
       
      That's an interesting topic. Perhaps in his time there are dozens or even hundreds of similar services, much more than the five cases here. But only very few of them have survived the fierce competitions in the market.
    • alperin
      alperin on 27 Nov 11
       
      it could be just that their business models weren't right. Online businesses are easy to start (engineers are good at implementing them), but then turning a profit is another story. Many of the great websites operated for ages in the red, only surviving on investors believing in the idea.
  • people should be exposed to materials that they would not have chosen in advance.
  • ...45 more annotations...
  • Unanticipated encounters
  • are central to democracy and even to freedom itself
  • many or most citizens should have a range of common experiences
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      In some ways these two requirements are the basis for the standard school system as well.
    • alperin
      alperin on 27 Nov 11
       
      but its too much of a burden on the school system to provide the basis for all our common experiences. These must continue well into adulthood, which means we should still have them outside of our school years.
  • consumers can entirely personalize (or “customize”) their communications universe.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      how close are we to this now? and is it a utopian dream?
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      I mean in personalizing our internet experience, not in the course of everyday life as will be outlined here...
    • alperin
      alperin on 27 Nov 11
       
      the only place we have some encounters with things we don't expect is with searches. Sometimes, random things come up that are unexpected. Otherwise, yes, we get what we want. At best, we get a bit of exposure because someone we follow links to things we don't necessarily expect. 
  • many people are using it to produce narrowness, not breadth.
  • there is a difference of degree if not of kind.
  • dramatic increase in individual control over content, and a corresponding decrease in the power of general interest intermediaries, including newspapers, magazines, and broadcasters
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      Not sure if I agree completely with this. I think the decrease in power might just be more subtle use of power
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      I feel like this overstates the original power of general interest media, as well as the "general" piece of it. 
    • alperin
      alperin on 27 Nov 11
       
      I also think that these general interest media content providers are still alive and well, providing general interest content over the internet. How many ways can I get reality tv?
    • alperin
      alperin on 27 Nov 11
       
      and less tonge-in-cheek, most people still read the NYTimes, the Guardian, CNN, Fox, etc. Be it online, tv, or in print. There are a million ways to personalize your experience, but most people opt for the traditional sources for the majority of their news and then may dig deeper with personalized choices.
  • chance encounters,
  • When people see materials that they have not chosen, their interests and their views might change as a result.
  • common framework for social experience.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      Is the increase in fragmentation made up for by the fact that news/experiences on the Internet can travel instanteously to large numbers of people if they go viral?
  • group polarization
  • groups of people, especially if they are like-minded, will end up thinking the same thing that they thought before—but in more extreme form.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      I've read articles and heard from people that political parties now are much less likely to compromise with each other than in the past. A couple of questions: Do you think that's true or just a typical exaggeration that happens as the past fades away from public memory? If it is true, do you think the rise of individualizing content on the Internet and subsequently polarizing views of large groups of people have contributed to it as a reflection in the political parties?
  • If your position is going to move as a result of group discussion, it is likely to move in the direction of the most persuasive position defended within the group, taken as a collectivity
  • the group as a whole moves, as a statistical regularity, to a more extreme position
  • group polarization is likely to have fueled many movements of great value
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      Appreciate pointing out the positives of group polarization as well. Sometimes we get bogged down in the negatives of a topic
  • it is extremely important to ensure that people are exposed to views other than those with which they currently agree,
  • In a heterogeneous society, it is extremely important for diverse people to have a set of common experiences.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      Builds community
  • congregate around a common issue, task, or concern
  • enjoyment
  • people who would otherwise see one another as unfamiliar can come to regard one another as fellow citizens, with shared hopes, goals, and concerns
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      Goes back to communities included shared experiences and the thoughts on how time spent together leads to a community
  • to show how consumer sovereignty, in a world of limitless options, could undermine that system
  • Websites might use links and hyperlinks to ensure that viewers learn about sites containing opposing views
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 25 Nov 11
       
      would this just encourage more overt disparaging remarks?
  • The basic question is whether it might be possible to create spaces that have some of the functions of public forums and general interest intermediaries in the age of the Internet.
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      Part of this argument seems to assume that qualities of balanced reporting do not apply to websites as well. As more brand name news agencies weigh in online does this change the need to a degree?
  • As a result of the Internet, people can learn far more than they could before, and they can learn it much faster.
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 26 Nov 11
       
      Yes, knowledge is power. However, has the Internet forever changed our lives? Do we adapt to it or do we make it absolutely work for us? Does the technology also open a "Pandora's box" at the same time it emancipate us? Whenever I come through here, I often remember a saying that fortune and misfortune comes side by side.
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      Learning is not the same as accessing. 
  • the growing power of consumers to “filter” what they see.
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 26 Nov 11
       
      Yes, it's interesting. What you can see depends on what you are looking for. A clairvoyant would tell you that you are not going to see something you don't want to see.
    • alperin
      alperin on 27 Nov 11
       
      This has been shown empirically to be true, like the now well-known 'tale of two blog-o-spheres'
  • involving unfamiliar and even irritating topics and points of view
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 26 Nov 11
       
      This is one important reason that I still enjoy reading the newspaper, because I can "encounter" the information, news stories and points of views which might be surprising as well as fascinating.
  • group deliberation with like-minded people and insulation from alternate views breeds increasing extremism.
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 26 Nov 11
       
      Form a bias -- confirm the bias -- leading to prejudice. Does it work this way?
  • general interest intermediaries expose people to a wide range of topics and views and at the same time provide shared experiences for a heterogeneous public.
  • exposures help promote understanding and perhaps, in that sense, freedom
  • If the public is balkanized, and if different groups design their own preferred communications packages, the consequence will be further balkanization
  • raise questions about the idea that “more speech” is necessarily an adequate remedy—especially if people are increasingly able to wall themselves off from competing views.
  • “consumer sovereignty,” which underlies much of contemporary enthusiasm for the Internet
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      Ties to Habermas, but puts more power in the hands of the consumer.
  • As a result of the Internet, cascade effects are more common than they have ever been before.
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 27 Nov 11
       
      An argument for media literacy.
  • New technology can expose people to diverse points of view and creates opportunities for shared experiences. People may, through private choices, take advantage of these possibilities. But, to the extent that they fail to do so, it is worthwhile to consider private and public initiatives designed to pick up the slack.
  • in a free republic, citizens aspire to a system that provides a wide range of experiences
  • Hence their views may shift when they see what other people and in particular what other group members think.
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 27 Nov 11
       
      What's interesting is that sometimes when I do group readings, I feel that other people's comments on the page may have more or less influence on my formation of opinions. It is especially obvious when we do group readings on the paper.
  • social comparison
  • when group discussion tends to lead people to more strongly held versions of the same view with which they began, and if social influences and limited argument pools are responsible, there is legitimate reason for concern.
  • often becomes quite entrenched, even if it is entirely wrong.
  • This is a simple matter of numbers.
  • To the extent that choices proliferate, it is inevitable that diverse individuals, and diverse groups, will have fewer shared experiences and fewer common reference points.
  • voluntary self-regulation.
  • voluntary self-regulation.
  • advertisers are willing to spend a great deal of money to obtain brief access to people’s eyeballs
  • a well-functioning democracy depends on far more than restraints on official censorship of controversial ideas and opinions. It also depends on some kind of public sphere
Liu He

The Tragedy of the Commons by Garrett Hardin - The Garrett Hardin Society - Articles - 5 views

www.garretthardinsociety.org/...rt_tragedy_of_the_commons.html

hardin commons collective action

shared by Liu He on 11 Nov 11 - Cached
  • In our day (though not in earlier times) technical solutions are always welcome.
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      a truism?
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 15 Nov 11
       
      An assumption.
  • courage
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      Now I know where the inspiration came for the scene from the greatest hacker movie of all time (spoiler alert): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      " This is the "lesson" scene from the movie War Games. Where we learn that the only way to win in Nuclear War is not to play."
  • ...46 more annotations...
  • It is fair to say that most people who anguish over the population problem are trying to find a way to avoid the evils of overpopulation without relinquishing any of the privileges they now enjoy.
  • the solution they seek cannot be found
  • The population problem cannot be solved in a technical way, any more than can the problem of winning the game of tick-tack-toe.
  • "Space" is no escape
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      this is the equivalent of not playing
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      at this point, I am beginning to get impatient. Enough set up, lets get to the point.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 12 Nov 11
       
      Agreed. And the tone of the preceeding few paragraphs is really pessimistic...
  • We want the maximum good per person; but what is good? To one person it is wilderness, to another it is ski lodges for thousands. To one it is estuaries to nourish ducks for hunters to shoot; to another it is factory land. Comparing one good with another is, we usually say, impossible because goods are incommensurable. Incommensurables cannot be compared.
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      OK. Now we're defining useful concepts. If we're going to talk about the 'commons', then we have to understand how each of us uses (and appreciates) different aspects of the commons. The fact we see different things of value, does not take away from its 'common'ality
  • Any people that has intuitively identified its optimum point will soon reach it, after which its growth rate becomes and remains zero.
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      I questions this. By this definition, the way we've structured modern economies will ensure we never reach the optimum. Our economies are set up to always keep growing.
  • The essence of dramatic tragedy is not unhappiness. It resides in the solemnity of the remorseless working of things.
  • As a rational being, each herdsman seeks to maximize his gain. Explicitly or implicitly, more or less consciously, he asks, "What is the utility to me of adding one more animal to my herd?" This utility has one negative and one positive component. 1) The positive component is a function of the increment of one animal. Since the herdsman receives all the proceeds from the sale of the additional animal, the positive utility is nearly +1. 2) The negative component is a function of the additional overgrazing created by one more animal. Since, however, the effects of overgrazing are shared by all the herdsmen, the negative utility for any particular decision-making herdsman is only a fraction of -1.
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      you will always hear the tragedy of the commons explained with the use of these sheep. These three short paragraphs summarize it nicely.
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 06 Dec 11
       
      Is it because it happens in the agricultural society? Almost every economics text book begins with such a story.
  • Therein is the tragedy. Each man is locked into a system that compels him to increase his herd without limit--in a world that is limited.
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      and this phrase summarizes it even more succinctly
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 12 Nov 11
       
      My only problem with the cattle or sheep analogy is that there is someone making the decision about whether or not to add more. His argument seems to be concerning the optimal population of humanity. If that were the case, we would be akin to the cattle. And do the cattle have any idea of the tragedy of the commons? Who would be the higher authority figure weighing the costs and benefits of adding one more?
    • alperin
      alperin on 11 Nov 11
       
      I don't understand what he's trying to say here with the parking meters.
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 15 Nov 11
       
      Yeah, there is an odd analogy here that free parking is just like the commons but this doesn't really work for me because parking slots are a set and clearly defined resource. The city as a whole does not lose parking or destroy by making it free (although you could make the argument that they lose some tax revenue). There just isn't really a comparable tragedy here. On the other hand, if the city had allowed for parking ANYWHERE, on lawns, in public parks, on sidewalks, that might make more sense to me.  
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 06 Dec 11
       
      so the key would be the scarcity of resources?
  • Plainly, we must soon cease to treat the parks as commons or they will be of no value anyone.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 12 Nov 11
       
      Are they true commons though? The park is run by the government, who could limit traffic through them by raising the cost of entry
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 15 Nov 11
       
      I agree here. A number of national parks all have different barriers to entry, and they certainly have regulations around taking, littering, hunting etc. 
  • In a reverse way, the tragedy of the commons reappears in problems of pollution.
  • The calculations of utility are much the same as before.
  • openly abandon the game--refuse to play it.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 12 Nov 11
       
      in regards to collective action - does this relate to a feeling of hopelessness if it doesn't seem like the problem can be solved or "won"? This seems to be the case for large scale problems like environmental issues.
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 15 Nov 11
       
      Another way to not play is to deny the existence of the problem.
    • Liu He
      Liu He on 06 Dec 11
       
      sometimes it is impossible to quit "playing", if the game is part of our life.
  • tendency to assume that decisions reached individually will, in fact, be the best decisions for an entire society
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 12 Nov 11
       
      Not completely sure about the "tendency to assume"...maybe people can convience themselves of this, but on some level there are decisions that we know are not good for an entire society
  • pollution problem is a consequence of population
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 15 Nov 11
       
      The pollution problem is also a consequence of technology as individual people have the capacity to make greater environmental footprints than ever before. 
  • One does not know whether a man killing an elephant or setting fire to the grassland is harming others until one knows the total system in which his act appears.
  • Parents who bred too exuberantly would leave fewer descendants, not more, because they would be unable to care adequately for their children.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 12 Nov 11
       
      Curious connection to the tendency now in the US to have only one child and focus one getting advantages for that one
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 12 Nov 11
  • our society is deeply committed to the welfare state
  • To couple the concept of freedom to breed with the belief that everyone born has an equal right to the commons is to lock the world into a tragic course of action.
  • "double bind
  • Some people have proposed massive propaganda campaigns to instill responsibility into the nation's (or the world's) breeders.
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 12 Nov 11
       
      Keep comming back to the idea that birth rate drops as nations become more developed. Example in China, birth rate would have dropped even without one child policy. Best way to limit population = work on poverty / technology issues?
    • alperin
      alperin on 12 Nov 11
       
      Yes, and certainly it is not about having propaganda campaigns
  • it must be presented rationally--in words
    • alperin
      alperin on 12 Nov 11
       
      I am not convinced it has to be in words. but yes, presented completely and rationally.
  • commons, if justifiable at all, is justifiable only under conditions of low-population density.
    • alperin
      alperin on 12 Nov 11
       
      @Jenn: why did you highlight this? what is it saying to you?
    • Jennifer Bundy
      Jennifer Bundy on 12 Nov 11
       
      It just seemed like the main point he was trying to get across and I wanted to be able to come back to it
  • There is almost no restriction on the propagation of sound waves in the public medium.
  • "Who shall watch the watchers themselves?"
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 15 Nov 11
       
      Pop culture reference time! Watchmen (comic and/or movie) and All along the Watchtower (Bob Dylan).
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 15 Nov 11
       
      And who ARE the watchers? Depends on who you ask. 
  • Freedom To Breed Is Intolerable
  • There is a feeling that the United Nations is "our last and best hope,'' that we shouldn't find fault with it;
    • alperin
      alperin on 12 Nov 11
       
      oh, not so many people still have such hopes for the UN. Do you?
  • People vary. Confronted with appeals to limit breeding, some people will undoubtedly respond to the plea more than others. Those who have more children will produce a larger fraction of the next generation than those with more susceptible consciences. The difference will be accentuated, generation by generation.
    • alperin
      alperin on 12 Nov 11
       
      I don't fully buy this argument about conscience. Is it proven that it is a genetic trait? On the other hand, this argument does hold for creating more inequality and poverty in todays society: people with higher levels of wealth have fewer babies, concentrating the wealth in smaller and smaller groups of people, while the poor are trapped in cycles of poverty in growing numbers...
  • The argument assumes that conscience or the desire for children (no matter which) is hereditary
    • alperin
      alperin on 12 Nov 11
       
      oh, good. I thought the text overlooked this point (see my comment above)
  • "Responsibility," says this philosopher, "is the product of definite social arrangements." Notice that Frankel calls for social arrangements--not propaganda.
  • We need not actually forbid a citizen to park as long as he wants to; we need merely make it increasingly expensive for him to do so.
  • persuasion
    • alperin
      alperin on 12 Nov 11
       
      another great radio show, all about the advertising industry (very well produced and entertaining) http://www.cbc.ca/ageofpersuasion/
  • The only kind of coercion I recommend is mutual coercion, mutually agreed upon by the majority of the people affected.
  • Every new enclosure of the commons involves the infringement of somebody's personal liberty.
  • a criterion of judgment and a system of weighting are needed
    • S Chou
      S Chou on 15 Nov 11
       
      This seems to relate to the proliferation of "like" buttons and our growing need/ability/expectation to crowd source opinion.
  • To conjure up a conscience in others is tempting to anyone who wishes to extend his control beyond the legal limits.
  • a change only in the techniques of the natural sciences,
  • a desired technical solution is not possible.
  • "no technical solution problems,"
  • it is the acquisition of energy that is the problem.
  • When this condition is met, what will be the situation of mankind? Specifically, can Bentham's goal of "the greatest good for the greatest number" be realized?
  • However, by any reasonable standards, the most rapidly growing populations on earth today are (in general) the most miserable. This association (which need not be invariable) casts doubt on the optimistic assumption that the positive growth rate of a population is evidence that it has yet to reach its optimum.
  • so the tragedy of the commons as a cesspool must be prevented by different means, by coercive laws or taxing devices that make it cheaper for the polluter to treat his pollutants than to discharge them untreated.
  • How do we prevent such action? Certainly not by trying to control his behavior solely by a verbal appeal to his sense of responsibility. Rather than rely on propaganda we follow Frankel's lead and insist that a bank is not a commons; we seek the definite social arrangements that will keep it from becoming a commons. That we thereby infringe on the freedom of would-be robbers we neither deny nor regret.
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