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IDABC - EU: Microsoft's ODF-support draws mixed reactions

Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:03:13 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

Greve told the BBC that genuine adoption of ODF would give consumers more choice. "People will no longer need to use Microsoft Office in order to interoperate. People could switch to GNU/Linux and choose OpenOffice or other applications that support ODF, like Lotus Symphony or Google Docs."

Tags: eu harmonization iso odf ooxml

Posted by: garyedwards

What to do now - Rick Jelliffe

Fri, 30 May 2008 01:16:37 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

Now that ODF and OOXML are both set to be on the ISO/IEC books, it is useful to consider what the next productive steps are.

For genuine ODF Supporters who are concerned that ODF has languished a little out of the limelight during 2007, there are a lot of useful things to be done. You don’t even need to join the OASIS groups or your local National Body or SC34 to begin.

I suggest here are some things that will help the ODF effort coming into ODF 1.2.

Tags: harmonization jelliffe odf ooxml

Posted by: marbux

Detail Results ISO/IEC FDIS 24754

Wed, 28 May 2008 18:13:32 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

ISO International Organization for Standardization Document #: ISO/IEC FDIS 24754 Title: Information technology -- Document description and processing languages -- Minimum requirements for specifying document rendering systems Scope: Keywords: IT applications in information, documentation and publishing Committee: ISO IEC JTC 1 SC 34 - Document description and processing languages SDO Approval Date: ANSI Approval Date: Date File Updated in Database May 13 2008 4:50PM

Tags: harmonization iso_iec standards minimum requirements odf ooxml presentation layer sc 34

Posted by: marbux

ODF useless for Microsoft needs - Google: OOXML 'insufficient and unnecessary' - Talkback at ZDNet UK

Fri, 07 Mar 2008 23:51:10 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

ODF's limited spec can't support all MS Office features unless Microsoft goes on a major entending trip.

Tags: embrace-extend google harmonization odf ooxml opendocument unification

Posted by: garyedwards

Wizard of ODF: Proposal to amend TC charter, re interoperability with non-conformant ap

Fri, 07 Mar 2008 23:51:09 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

7. it must provide all feasible functionality required to suppport full fidelity conversions from and to existing office document binary file formats.

Tags: harmonization interop interoperability oasis odf ooxml opendocument

Posted by: garyedwards

The Case for Harmonization (that IBM will vote against anyway) « A Frantic Opposition

Sat, 09 Feb 2008 04:30:26 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

The Case for Harmonization (that IBM will vote against anyway)

In my recent post, I discussed the case for harmonization, mainly due to trying to portray a more kindly, conciliatory face in the “standards krieg” that I was enjoying so much. I have been forced to take a different tack, in light of being hung out to dry by my more business-focused IBM comrades and the work that the enemy has done in sprucing up the spec. However, as my closest friends know, for me, there are no half-victories, so you can rest assured that I will not settle for this weak “harmonization” compromise. I set out my (and IBM’s) stall some time ago on this, and as those on the Open Document Foundation know, any attempt at harmonization shall be met with swift and final retribution. They were ejected from the odf-coven just days after their impudence. I have baited my trap, inviting this “harmonization” in my lair (the OASIS ODF TC) where I can bog them down in a morass of incompetence, bickering and politicking, so no new standard is ever ratified. I have already been practicing for this, as you can see, by the ODF 1.1 and 1.2 specs.

Tags: foundation harmonization interop oasis odf ooxml opendocument openxml

Posted by: garyedwards

The ODF Alliance puckers up and gets smacked with the great CSS question - Where is it? | O'Reilly XML Blog

Wed, 06 Feb 2008 06:55:06 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

Harmonisation

It is interesting that the ODF Alliance quotes Tim Bray that the world doesn’t need another way to express basic typesetting features. If it is so important, why didn’t ODF just adopt W3C CSS or ISO DSSSL conventions? Why did they adopt the odd automatic styles mechanism which no other standard uses? Now I think the ODF formating conventions are fine, and automatic styles are a good idea. But there is more than one way to make an omlette, and a good solution space is good for users.

My perspective is that harmonisation (which will take multiple forms: modularity, pluralism, base sets, extensions, mappings, round-trippability, feature-matching, convergence of component vocabularies, etc, not just the simplistic common use of a common syntax) will be best achieved by continued user pressure, both on MS and the ODF side, within a forum where neither side can stymie the legitimate needs of other.

Tags: harmonization hypocrisy interop iso odf odf-alliance ooxml opendocument openxml

Posted by: garyedwards

ODF and OOXML - The Final Act

Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:44:37 -0000

Comments:

Correcto mundo! There should be only one standard to maximise interoeprability and functionality. But ODF is application specific to the way OpenOffice works. It was not designed from a clean slate. Nor was the original 2002 OpenOffice XML spec designed as an open source effort! Check the OOo source code if you doubt this claim. The ONLY contributors to Open Office XML were Sun employees!

What the world needs is in fact a format standard designed to maximise interoperability and functionality. This requires a total application-platofrm-vendor independence that neither ODF or OOXML can claim.

The only format that meets these requirements is the W3C's family of HTML-XML formats. These include advancing Compound Docuemnt Framework format components such as (X)HTML-5, CSS-3, XForms, SVG and SMiL.. The W3C's CDF does in fact meet the markeplace needs of a universal format that is open, unencumbered and totally application, platform and vendor independent. The only trick left for CDF is proving that legacy desktop applications can actually implement conversions from existing in-memory-binary-representations to CDF without loss of information.
posted by garyedwards

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

The format war between Microsoft’s Open Office XML (OOXML) and the open source OpenDocument Format (ODF) has flared up again, right before the looming second OOXML ISO vote in March.

“ISO has a policy that, wherever possible, there should only be one standard to maximise interoperability and functionality. We have an international standard for digital documentation, ODF,” IBM’s local government programs executive Kaaren Koomen told AustralianIT.

ODF has garnered some criticism for being a touch limited in scope, however, one of its strengths is that it has already been accepted as a worldwide ISO standard. Microsoft’s format on the other hand, has been criticised for being partially proprietary, and even a sly attempt by the software giant to hedge its bets and get in on open standards while keeping as many customers locked into its solutions as possible.

A "touch limited in scope"? Youv'e got to be kidding. ODF was not defined to be compatible with the billions of MSOffice binary (BIN) documents. Nor was it designed to further interoperability with MSOffice.

Given that there are over 550 million MSOffice desktops, representing upwards of 95% of all desktop productivity environments, this discrepancy of design would seem to be a bit more than a touch limited in scope!

Many would claim that this limitation was due to to factors: first that Microsoft refused to join the OASIS ODF TC, which would have resulted in an expanded ODF designed to meet the interoperability needs of the great herd of 550 million users; and second, that Microsoft refused to release the secret binary blueprints.

Since it turns out that both IBM and Sun have had access to the secret binary blueprints since early 2006, and in the two years since have done nothing to imptove ODF interop and conversion fidelity, this second claim doesn't seem to hold much water.

The first claim that Microsoft didn't participate in the OASIS ODF process is a bit more interesting. If you go back to the first OASIS ODF Technical Committee meeting, December 16th, 2002, you'll find that there was a proposal to ammend the proposed charter to include the statemnt that ODF (then known as Open Office XML) be compatible with existing file formats, including those of MSOffice. The "MSOffice" reference was of course not included because ODF sought to be application, platform and vendor independent. But make no mistake, the discussion that day in 2002 was about compatibility and the conversion of the legacy BIN's into ODF.

The proposal to ammend the charter was tabled. Sun objected, claiming that people would interpret the statement as a direct reference to the BIN's, clouding the charter's purpose of application, platform and vendor independence. They proposed that the charter ammendment be taken up a later time after the OASIS TC members had had a chance to read through the Open Office XML specification proposal.

Later attempts to change the charter (and the specification) to recognize the marketplace needs of compatibility with the BIN's were defeated. These issues came to a head when Massachusetts passed an ODF mandate, and was unable to implement ODF exactly because they couldn't convert existing documents, applications and business processes to an ODF based footing. This in turn lead to a major push within the OASIS ODF TC to ammend the specification and charter. If the compatibility - interoeprability problems with legacy desktop systems could not be resolved, there was no way ODF could succeed in Massachusetts.

That would of course leave the door open for OOXML and the OOXML plug-in for MSOffice as the only means of Massachusetts moving to a highly structured XML document footing. Massachusetts needed to get their desktop documents, applications and business processes into some form of useful XML before they could push forward with their SOA-SaaS-Web 2.0 enterprise infrastucture initiatives.

Between July 12th of 2006, and February 20th of 2007, there were six proposals submitted to the OASIS ODF groups designed to improve ODF compatibility - interoperability with the legacy desktops. Six different proposals! And not one survived the OASIS ODF discussion process.

One last point. The German DIN group was authorized by the EU to write a report for ISO concerning the prospects of harmonizing ODF and OOXML. DIN invited all the players with Microsoft and Novell accepting the challenge, and the ODF contingent led by IBM and Sun refusing to participate. The OASIS ODF TC was also inviited, but so far has waffled and stuttered even thoguh a number of meetings have already been held.

Given this past history, is it reasonable to assume that the OASIS ODF TC would have cooperated with Microsoft at any time in the past five years? There simply isn't any evidence to support claims that the ODF TC supports marketplace needs of compatibility - interoeprability. The evidence is quite to the contrary. And it's substantial.

posted by garyedwards
Will harmonization work?

I don't think so. The problem is that the DIN group is trying to harmonize two application specific formats. OpenOffice has one way of implementing basic document structures, and MSOffice another. These differences are directly reflected in the related formats, ODF and OOXML. Any attempts to harmonize ODF and OOXML will require that the applications, OpenOffice and MSOffice, be harmonized!

There is no other way of doing this unless the harmonized spec has two different methods for implementing basic structures like lists, tables, fields, sections and page dynamics. Not to mention the problems of feature disparities.

If the harmonized spec has two different implementation models for basic structures, interoeprability will suffer enormously. And interoperability is after all the prupose of the standardization effort.

That brings us to a difficult compromise. Should OpenOffice compromise it's "innovative" features and methods in favor of greater interoperability with MSOffice and billions of binary documents? Let me see, 100 million OpenOffice installs vs. 550 MSOffice installs bound to workgroup-workflow business processes - many of which are critical to day to day business operations?

Sun and IBM have provided the anser to this question. They are not about to compromise on OpenOffice innovation! They believe that since their applications are free, the cost of ODF mandated "rip out and replace" is adequately offset.

Events in Massachusetts prove otherwise!

On July 2nd, 2007, Sun delivered to Massachusetts the final version of their ODF plug-in for MSOffice. That night, after reviewing and testing the 135 critical documents, Massachusetts made a major change to their ETRM web site. They ammended the ETRM to fully recognize OOXML as an acceptable format standard going forward.

The Massachusetts decision to overturn the ODF mandate was made after two years of testing and study of ODF implementation proposals. The first year was dedicated to "rip out and replace" initiatives put forward by IBM, Sun and Novell. The second year was dedicated to ODF plug-in for MSOffice efforts, culminating in the July 2nd, 2007 decision.

Simply put, Massachusetts was unable to implement ODF. The failures laregly being due to the fact that ODF was not designed to for a world dominated by MSOffice desktops! If users are unable to convert their documents to ODF, they are left with no other choice but to go forward with OOXML. If ODF plug-in desingers are unable to perfect this conversion, there is no way to repurpose MSOffice as an ODF ready application.

It's that simple.

~ge~
posted by garyedwards

The Burton Group did not recommend that ISO recognize OOXML as a standard! They pointed out that the marketplace is going to implement OOXML by default simply because it's impossible to implement ODF in situations where MSOffice dominates.

ISO should not go down the slippery slope of recognizing application-platform-vendor specific standards. They already made that mistake with ODF, and recognizing OOXML is hardly the fix.

What ISO should be doign is demanding that ODF fully conform with ISO Interoeprability Requirements, as identified in the May 2006 directive! Forget OOXML. Clean up ODF first.
posted by garyedwards

Tags: din fraunhofer harmonization iso odf ooxml opendocument openxml

Posted by: garyedwards

Harmonization Wars : Is it jetlag? | Brian Jones: Open XML- Open Document Formats

Fri, 01 Feb 2008 19:50:42 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

if you actually read the Ecma response, you'll see that TC45's position is actually quite the opposite. Harmonization is not as simple as just adding a few tags here and there. It's going to be a lot of hard work, and the German Standard Body (DIN) is already working on the first step, which is to identify the differences. This isn't something to take lightly.

Here is Ecma's full response to this issue (emphasis added):

There are currently several XML-based document formats in use, each designed to address a different set of goals or requirements. These include ISO/IEC IS 26300 (ODF), China's UOF, and ECMA-376 (DIS 29500 – Open XML). All these formats have numerous implementations in multiple tools and multiple platforms (Linux, Windows, Mac OS, hand-held devices).

The Ecma Response Document from the Fast Track 30-Day contradiction phase for DIS29500 addressed the question of harmonization by explaining the differences between the ODF and Open XML formats as follows:

Tags: harmonization jones odf ooxml opendocument openxml weir

Posted by: garyedwards

The Harmonization Myth: ISO Approval of Open XML Will Hurt Interoperability

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:00:17 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

This myth is rather silly if you think about it. Here is why…

When people talk about interoperability and Open XML they do so primarily in the context of ODF. The story goes something like this:

1. Open XML is not interoperable with ODF
2. Open XML should be interoperable with ODF because ODF is already an ISO standard!
3. Hence: Open XML is no good, because it is not interoperable with ODF and therefore Open XML should not be an ISO standard!!!

Forget ISO approval of OOXML. I would rather see ISO enforce the current directive that ODF be brought into compliance with existing ISO Interoperability requirements. Then and only then should ISO then consider OOXML.

The reason for this approach? If ODF wiere compliant with existing ISO Interop Requirements, there would probably be some hope of harmonizing ODF and OOXML. Until ODF is stripped of it's application specific settings, and fully documented, we can hardly beging the process of figuring out harmonization.

ODF 1.0 has four gapping holes that must be tended to before ISO proceeds any furhter with either ODF or OOXML. The holes are that ODF numbered lists, formulas and the presentation layer (styles) are woefully underspecified. The fourth problem is that ODF is seriously lacking an interoperability framework.

These ODF problems can of course be traced back to the fact that ODF is application specific and bound to the "semantics and capabilities" of OpenOffice. That creates all kinds of problems. OOXML on the other hand is even worse. OOXML is application, platform and vendor specific!!!!

If ODF were brought up to snuff, we could reasonably start work on harmonization. Thereby eliminating the need to standardize two file formats for the same purposes. Until ODF is fixed, what's the world to do?

~ge~
posted by garyedwards

Tags: din fraunhofer harmonization iso odf ooxml opendocument openxml

Posted by: garyedwards

Wizard of ODF: OASIS invited to join Microsoft in the DIN technical report - harmonization effort. Will they take the bait?

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:33:14 -0000

Highlights and Sticky Notes:

the WG is busy working on a first draft. This'll include mainly work in Wordprocessing. Spreadsheet and Presentation is still in the very early work. So help from the ODF TC would be great --- and a liaison would make sense IMHO. To give you an idea why help from the Ã“DF TC would be needed I'll briefly outline some questions which arose: * Need for more use-cases, i.e. feasable interop scenarios * Discussions of unspecified behaviour (e.g numbering in 1.0, spreadsheet formulas, compatibilty options, etc.) and their impact on interop scenarios * Questions regaring generic settings like e.eg. form:control-implementation="ooo:com.sun.star.form.component.Form", or tweaking a la http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=51726. * Possible interop problems not handled by the specs (e.g. graphics, WMF, EMF, SVM, etc.) or e.g. font metrics and font embedding. As you see there are a lot of overlapping areas with eg. the "ODF interop" we dealt with in the workshop in Barcelona. [This issue is hosted in the Adoption TC, right? Maybe this TC is also suited as a liaison partner?]

Uh Oh. Microsoft and Novell joined the EU's call to harmonize ODF and OOXML, but Sun and IBM refused the invite. Now we have the invite in front of the OASIS ODF TC!. Is there any rock big enough for them to hide under if they also refuse?

And if the OASIS ODF does join the EU-DIN-ISO effort, where doe stha tleave IBM, Sun and their inistance on a politically mandated "rip out and replace" as the only acceptable solution?
posted by garyedwards

Tags: din eu harmonization iso oasis odf ooxml xml

Posted by: garyedwards

Harmonizing ODF and OOXML: The DIN - ISO "Harmonization" Project

Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:37:11 -0000

Comments:

Contact: Gerd Schürmann Fraunhofer Institute FOKUS Tel +49 (0)30 3463 7213 gerd.schuermann@fokus.fraunhofer.de Berlin posted by garyedwards
At a recent meeting in Berlin, The DIN Fraunhoffer Institute pushed forward with the EU project to harmonize ODF and OOXML.

Microsoft and Novell attended the harmonization effort. Sun and IBM did not. This in spite of invitations and pleas to cooperate coming into Sun and IBM from government officials across the European continent.

We've long insisted that inside the OASIS ODF Technical Committee walls there have been years of discussions concerning ODF compatibility with the billions of MS binary documents, and ODF interoperability with MSOffice. Sun in particular has been very clear that they will not compromise OpenOffice application innovations to improve interoperability with MSOffice and MSOffice documents.

The infamous List Enhancement Proposal donnybrook that dominated OASIS ODF discussions from November 20th, 2006, to the final vote in April of 2007, actually begins with a statement from Sun arguing that application innovation is far more important than market demands for interoperability. The discussions starts here: Suggested ODF1.2 items

The first of many responses declaring Sun's position that innovation trumps interop, and that if anyone needs to change their application it should be Microsoft: see here

DIN will submit a "harmonization" report with recommendations to ISO JTC1. I wonder if IBM and Sun will continue to insist on government mandated "rip out and replace" solutions based on their ODF applications when ISO and the EU have set a course for "harmonization"?
posted by garyedwards

Tags: din harmonization iso odf ooxml

Posted by: garyedwards