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Response to Yoon Kit's comments that Patrick Durusau is caught between a rock and hard place. His ISO JTC-1 group is now overwhelmed with MS OOXML supporters!
Tags: durusau iso microsoft odf ooxml slashdot w3c on 03-28-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from slashdot.org
This commentary follows the Stockholm Syndrom post, which is itself in the thread based on Yoon Kit's Open Malaysia comments concerning the dilemma Patrick Durusau is in; the JTC-1 is now filled with Microsoft OOXML supporters!
Tags: iso odf ooxml w3c on 03-28-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from tech.slashdot.org
Tags: foundation iso microsoft odf ooxml w3c on 03-22-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.regdeveloper.co.uk
Gary Edwards of the Open Document Foundation has a fascinating post on the important of Microsoft Office compatibility to the success of the ISO-approved Open Document formats.
It is in places a rare voice of sanity:
People continue to insist that if only Microsoft would implement ODF natively in MSOffice, we could all hop on down the yellow brick road, hand in hand, singing kumbaya to beat the band. Sadly, life doesn’t work that way. Wish it did.
Sure, Microsoft could implement ODF - but only with the addition of application specific extensions to the current ODF specification … Sun has already made it clear at the OASIS ODF TC that they are not going to compromise (or degrade) the new and innovative features and implementation model of OpenOffice just to be compatible with the existing 550 million MSOffice desktops.
Tags: css hachamovitch html ie microsoft silverlight w3c wpf xaml xhtml on 03-15-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.guardian.co.uk
I asked Hachamovitch, who has led the Explorer team since 2003, why it has taken Microsoft so long to address these deficiencies. "It comes down to what we were doing with our time," he said. "Between 2001 and 2003 we were building what you experience now as Windows Presentation Foundation and Silverlight."
These technologies display not HTML, the language of web pages, but XAML, Microsoft's proprietary code for creating rich visual content.
Tags: cdf da-vinci foundation opendocument w3c on 03-07-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.w3.org
Tags: cdf css iso microsoft odf ooxml w3c xhtml on 03-07-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from ejohn.org
IMHO, the key to Microsoft's OOXML strategy can be seen in the recently released MSOffice SDK. The SDK provides a component for the fluid conversion of OOXML to something called fixed/flow. The fixed part of this interesting conjunction is also known as XPS, which is designed as a proprietary alternative to PDF. The flow part is a fascinating and highly proprietary replacement for (X)HTML - CSS.
Reading further through the MSOffice SDK, one can't help but be amazed at the lack of W3C technologies; especially (X)HTML, CSS, XForms and SVG. What we have instead is an entangling cascade of stuff like OOXML, fixed/flow, silverlight, XAML, and WPF. And then there is that recent promise of other high volume API's probably delivered through future Exchange, SharePoint, and MS SQL Server SDK's.
So, at the end of the day, what are we looking at here? IMHO, Microsoft has figured out that the smart thing to do is leverage and extend their existing desktop monopoly into the next generation of cloud computing where the Internet platform rules.
To pull this off, they have a number of problems to overcome; not the least of which is that they need to catch a break on anti trust, and, get OOXML through ISO. And oh yeah, there's that little problem that Windows can't do cloud computing.
Will the real universal document format please stand up! Comments on the recent article posted by the Universal Interoperability Council: "Putting Andy Updegrove to bed without his supper". The UIC article is well worth your time. It is extremely well referenced and researched. The arguments put forth counter claims by IBM and OASIS that the W3C's CDF format can not be used to represent desktop productivity environment documents. Not surprisingly, IBM and OASIS argue that the OpenOffice specific ODF is the only alternative to Microsoft Office specific OOXML. The UIC argues that the full range of MSOffice legacy binary documents and emerging XML documents can fully be represented in CDF - something that not even the most ardent of ODF jihadists would claim as an ODF capabilitiy. The truth is that ODF was not designed for the conversion of MSOffice binary and xml documents.
Tags: cdf ibm interop oasis odf ooxml opendocument openxml uic w3c on 02-06-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from digg.com
Tags: archives odf rdf w3c on 01-27-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.oasis-open.org
Tags: burtongorup cdf odf okelly ooxml w3c on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.computerworld.com
Marino Marcich, executive director of the OpenDocument Format Alliance, retorted via e-mail that many users are taking "a buyer-beware attitude" toward Open XML because that format "is not interoperable and will tie them to the upgrade path of a single vendor."
For example, he noted that Becta, the U.K. government's educational technology agency, last week released a report of its own advising, among other things, that to ensure the widest compatibility of files between different applications, Office 2007 users shouldn't save documents in Open XML. Instead, Becta recommended the continued use of Microsoft's older and proprietary .doc, .xls and .ppt formats.
It's true, OOXML is not interoperable. It was designed for MSOffice and MSOffice only. The problem is that there is no interoperable" alternative to OOXML!!!!
ODF itself has serious interoperability problems fully demonstrated at the October 2007 ODF Interoeprability Workshop held in Barcelona Spain. If users want interoperbility with ODF, they must settle on a single ODF vendor. So how is that different from the interop problems imposed by OOXML?
Tags: burtongorup cdf css odf okelly ooxml w3c xhtml on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.computerworld.com
Tags: burtongroup cdf css desmond odf okelly ooxml opendocument w3c xhtml on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from reddevnews.com
Tags: burtongorup cdf cio css ny odf okelly ooxml w3c xhtml on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.cio-weblog.com
Tags: burtongroup cdf css odf okelly ooxml w3c xhtml on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from creese.typepad.com
Five days ago Ars Technica issued its view of the Burton Group ODF/OOXML report and made it clear that they disagreed with its findings, going with the headline, "Analyst group slams ODF, downplays Microsoft ISO abuses."
We've had some questions from Burton Group clients and others about the article, so I thought it would be worthwhile to go through where we agree, where we disagree, where Ars Technica mischaracterizes what we said, and where it's wrong.
Tags: burtongroup cdf css ibm iso microsoft odf okelly ooxml opendocument openxml sun w3c xhtml on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.betanews.com
the Group went one step further, if only that far: It advised clients to steer clear of the whole format superiority debate, in order to avoid getting dragged down into what could be called "Office politics."
"ODF is insufficient for complex real-world enterprise requirements, and it is indirectly controlled by Sun Microsystems, despite also being an ISO standard," the Burton Group's Guy Creese and Peter O'Kelly wrote. "It's possible that IBM, Novell, and other vendors may be able to put ODF on a more customer-oriented trajectory in the future and more completely integrate it with the W3C content model, but for now ODF should be seen as more of an anti-Microsoft political statement than an objective technology selection."
Tags: burtongroup cdf css ibm iso microsoft odf okelly ooxml opendocument openxml sun w3c xhtml on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from blogs.msdn.com
Well well well. We knew that IBM had access to the secret binary blueprints back in 2006. Now we know that Sun ALSO had access!
And why is this important? In June of 2006, Massachusetts CIO Louis Gutierrez asked the OpenDocument Foundation's da Vinci Group to work with IBM on developing the da Vinci ODF plug-in clone of Microsoft's OOXML Compatibility Pack plug-in. When we met with IBM they were insistent that the only way OASIS ODF could establish sufficient compatibility with MSOffice and the billions of binary documents would be to have the secret blueprints open.
Even after we explained to IBM that da Vinci uses the same internal conversion process that the OOXML plug-in used to convert binaries, IBM continued to insist that opening up the secret binaries was a primary objective of the OASIS ODF community.
For sure this was important to IBM and Sun, but the secret binaries were of no use to us. da Vinci didn't need them. What da Vinci needed instead was a subset of ODF designed for the conversion of those billions of binary documents! A need opposed by Sun.
Sun of course would spend the next year developing their own ODF plug-in for MSOffice. But here's the thing: it turns out that Sun had complete access to the secret binary blueprints dating back to 2006!!!!!!
So even though IBM and Sun have had access to the blueprints since 2006, they have been unable to provide effective conversions to ODF!
This validates a point the da Vinci group has been trying to make since June of 2006: the problem of perfecting a high fidelity conversion between the billions of binaries and ODF has nothing to do with access to the secret binary blueprints. The real issue is that ODF was NOT designed for the conversion of those binary documents.
It is true that one could eXtend ODF to achieve the needed compatibility. But one has to be very careful before taking this route. The Sun - ODF covenant not to sue specifically exempts eXtensions to ODF not involving Sun! Meaning, if the interoperable subset of ODF was designed and implemented without Sun-OASIS participation and approval, the covenant not to sue does not apply. Developers beware! You cannot safely eXtend ODF without Sun's permission.
Here is the relevant text from Sun's covenant: "Sun irrevocably covenants that, subject solely to the reciprocity requirement described below, it will not seek to enforce any of its enforceable U.S. or foreign patents against any implementation of the Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) v1.0 Specification, or of any subsequent version thereof ("OpenDocument Implementation") in which development Sun participates to the point of incurring an obligation, as defined by the rules of OASIS, to grant (or commit to grant) patent licenses or make equivalent non-assertion covenants."
The obscurity of intent is masked in clever legalese. Which means, bring your legal team if you want to eXtend ODF, and prepare to argue.
My point is that this covenant could have been written clear and direct to say that Sun will not sue anyone for any reason related to ODF. But they didn't do that.
People will of course wonder why ODF is so bad that it might a as well be ZERO interop? The answer to this question is complicated, but a good place to start is to observe that, just as OOXML is an XML encoded dump of MSOffice in-memory-binary-representation, ODF is an XML encoded dump of OpenOffice/StarOffice in-memory-binary-representation.
The interop problem truly kicks in at the level of specifying this encoding. The Ecma and OASIS technical committees are responsible for fully specifying the OOXML and ODF. This means a complete syntax and semantic description needed to properly implement the specs. ODF and OOXML share one very big fault; the presentation-layout layer (or styles) is not fully specified! We have the syntax but not the semantics describing how layout works. This is particularly problematic in that both ODF and OOXML are application specific dumps. While they each do a good job separating content from presentation, neither fully specifies the presentation layer. Nor is the presentation layer portable in the sense that a CDF XHTML + CSS separation is portable.
And it is the presentation layer that binds the formats to their originating applications. MSOffice has one way of implementing basic document structures like lists, fields, tables, sections and page dynamics, and, OpenOffice has another. That these application differences are embodied in the formats creates an enormous interoperability problem. Applications can exchange content, but break when trying to interpret another applications presentation-layout layer. Especially when that presentation layer is under specified!
There were three aspects of ODF 1.0 that were under specified: numbered lists, formulas, and styles (presentation-layout). ODF 1.2 attempts to fix the formula problem, but does nothing for styles. The numbered lists "interop" problem was not fixed, but exacerbated.
So even though the binary blueprints were released two years ago to Sun and IBM, we have yet to see any improvement in conversion fidelity able to crack the lock MSOffice workgroup-workflow business processes have in the marketplace. Writing a subset of ODF enabling us to achieve that high fidelity conversion has a legal cloud hanging over the process. And all of these concerns are shadowed by the fact that neither OOXML or ODF have fully specified their presentation layers!
No wonder the W3C's formats are attracting so much attention.
~ge~
The second issue we had feedback on was an interest in the mapping from the binary formats into the Open XML formats. The thought here was that the most effective way to help people with this was to create an open source translation project to allow binary documents (.doc; .xls; .ppt) to be translated into Open XML. So we proposed the creation of a new open source project that would map a document written using the legacy binary formats to the Open XML formats. TC45 liked this suggestion, and here was the TC45 response to the national body comments:
We believe that Interoperability between applications conforming to DIS 29500 is established at the Office Open XML-to- Office Open XML file construct level only.
And here i was betting that the blueprints to the secret binaries would be released the weekend before the September 2nd, 2007 ISO vote on OOXML! Looks like Microsoft saved the move for when they really had to use it; jus tweeks before the February ISO Ballot Resolution Meetings set to resolve the Sept 2nd issues.
The truth is that years of reverse engineering have depleted the value of keeping the binary blueprints secret. It's true that interoperability with MSOffice in the past was near entirely dependent on understanding the secret binaries. Today however, with the rapid emergence of the Exchange/SharePoint juggernaught, interop with MSOffice is no longer the core issue. Now we have to compete with E/S, and it is the E/S interfaces, protocols and document API's and dependencies tha tmust be reverse engineered.
The E/S juggernaught is now surging to 70% or more of the market. These near monopoly levels of market penetration is game changing. One must reverse engineer or license the .NET libraries to crack the interop problem. And this time it's not just MSOffice. Today one must crack into the MS Stack whose core is tha tof MSOffice <> E/S.
So why not release the secret binary blueprints? If that's the cost of getting the application, platform and vendor specific OOXML through ISO, then it's a small price to pay for your own international standard.
Tags: cdf css svg w3c wicd xforms xhtml on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.w3.org
This document defines a generic language-independent processing model
for combining arbitrary document formats.
The Compound Document Framework is language-independent.
While it is clearly meant to serve as the basis for integrating W3C's
family of XML formats within its Interaction Domain (e.g., MathML, SMIL,
SVG, VoiceXML, XForms, XHTML, XSL) with each other, together with CSS and
the DOM; it can also be used to integrate non-W3C formats with W3C formats
or integrate non-W3C formats with other non-W3C formats.
Everying in this specification is normative except for diagrams,
examples, notes and sections marked non-normative.
The key words must, must not,
required, shall, shall not, should, should not, recommended, may and optional in this document are
to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].
This specification defines the following classes of products:
Tags: anti-trust browser-wars gates msoffice netscape ooxml w3c on 01-23-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from talkback.zdnet.com
Hi Robert,
What you've posted are examples of MSOffice ”compatibility settings” used to establish backwards compatibility with older documents, and, for the conversion of alien file formats (such as various versions of WordPerfect .wpd). These compatibility settings are unspecified in that we know the syntax but have no idea of the semantics. And without the semantic description there is no way other developers can understand implementation. This of course guarantees an unacceptable breakdown of interoperability.
But i would be hesitant to make my stand of rejecting OOXML based on this issue. It turns out that there are upwards of 150 unspecified compatibility settings used by OpenOffice/StarOffice. These settings are not specified in ODF, but will nevertheless show up in OpenOffice ODF documents – similarly defying interoperability efforts!
Since the compatibility settings are not specified or even mentioned in the ODF 1.0 – ISO 26300 specification, we have to go to the OOo source code to discover where this stuff comes from. Check out lines 169-211. Here you will find interesting settings such as, “UseFormerLineSpacing, UseFormerObjectPositioning, and UseFormerTextWrapping”.
So what's going on here?
Tags: burtongorup cdf css garyedwards maryjo odf okelly ooxml w3c xhtml on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from blogs.zdnet.com
“ODF represents laudable design and standards work. It’s a clean and useful design, but it’s appropriate mostly for relatively unusual scenarios in which full Microsoft Office file format fidelity isn’t a requirement. Overall, ODF addresses only a subset of what most organizations do with productivity applications today.”
The report continues:
“ODF is insufficient for complex real-world enterprise requirements, and it is indirectly controlled by Sun Microsystems, despite also being an ISO standard. It’s possible that IBM, Novell, and other vendors may be able to put ODF on a more customer-oriented trajectory in the future and more completely integrate it with the W3C content model, but for now ODF should be seen as more of an anti-Microsoft political statement than an objective technology selection.”
Mary Jo takes on the recently released Burton Group Report comparing OOXML and ODF. Peter O'Kelly, one of the Burton Group authors, once famously said, "ODF is a great format if you live in an alternative universe where MSOffice doesn't exist!"
This observation speaks to the core problem facing ODF and those who seek to implement the ODF standard: ODF was not designed for the conversion of MSOffice documents. Nor was ODF designed to work with MSOffice applications.
Another way of saying this is to state that ODF was not designed to be interoperable with MSOffice documents, applications and bound processes. The truth is that ODF was designed for OpenOffice/StarOffice. It is an application specific format.
Both OOXML and ODF do a good job of separating content from presentation (style). The problem is that the presentation - layout layers of both ODF and OOXML remains bound to specific applications producing it. While the content layers are entirely portable and can be exchanged without information loss, the presentation layers can not.
Microsoft makes no bones about the application specific design and purpose of OOXML. It's stated right in the Ecma 376 charter that OOXML was designed to be compatible with MSOffice and the billions of binary documents in MSOffice specific binary formats. The situation however is much more confusing with ODF.
ODF is often promoted as being application, platform and vendor independent. After five years of development though, the OASIS ODF TC has been unable to strip ODF of it's OpenOffice/StarOffice specific aspects. ODF 1.0 - ISO 26300 had three areas that were under specified; meaning these areas were described in syntax only, and lacked the full semantics demanded by interoperable implementations. Only OpenOffice and StarOffice code base applications are able to exchange documents with an acceptable fidelity.
The three under specified areas of ODF are: Lists (numbered), Formulas, and Layout - Presentation (styles).
ODF v 1.2 will deal with the formula problem, but this version is still in committee - perhaps years away from ISO approval. The List model in ODF 1.2 further aggravates the existing interop problems. And the presentation-layout problem is not dealt with at all. Meaning, we can expect the ODF Interop problems to continue far into the future.
There is a solution, but not what people think.
Most observers think that it's possible to harmonize ODF and OOXML. This is wishful thinking. Since both ODF and OOXML are application bound at the presentation layer, the only way to harmonize them would be to harmonize the applications themselves. Meaning; alter how the applications implement basic document structures such as lists, tables, sections, fields and page dynamics so that the implementation models are similar. This would involve serious compromise of what each application provider considers to be innovative feature sets.
Efforts to harmonize at the application layer will not work. The vendors, Sun and Microsoft, are unlikely to compromise on their innovative differentials. And there is no hope of changing the application specific formats unless and until the application providers consent.
The solution that will work is that of relying on converters. While everyone wants MSOffice to implement ODF, this is structurally impossible unless a subset of ODF is designed for this purpose. And the OASIS ODF TC has already rejected six different subset proposals designed for compatibility with MSOffice and the conversion of billions of MS binary documents.
It's also impossible to convert from one application specific format into another without significant information loss. Maybe if Microsoft and Sun were to completely specify the presentation - layout layers this problem could be lessened. But that's unlikely to happen.
So what to do?
Convert to a generic format designed for universal interoperability!
The W3C's CDF was designed for universal interop. It is totally application independent, building on combining basic document structures within the XHTML - CSS - XForms - SVG framework. CSS in particular is an extremely portable presentation layer!
Given that the large application vendors are unlikely to compromise, the W3C's CDF may be the only solution possible. The idea being to convert MSOffice documents (binary and OOXML) to CDF, and, similarly convert OpenOffice/StarOffice ODF documents to that same CDF profile.
At this higher level of Web ready CDF, there is universal interoperability. But the solution does put incredible pressure on the conversion layers.
This approach looks very similar to the SOA model where XML connectors are routinely used to wire together legacy systems. A common XML schema is used as the conversion layer connecting many black box information systems, with each connector having to be written and implemented. From the common schema, the legacy systems can be wired into emerging Web information systems, creating a fairly good information flow. Interoperability between systems might not be perfect (it depends on the quality of the individual converters – connectors), but it is usually far beyond the zero interop of previous generations!
What i'm suggesting is that document interoperability can be achieved following a similar route to that of SOA. The legacy applications can be wired together using an advanced conversion layer connecting the applications to a common XML configuration. The W3C's CDF has the flexibility and reach to capture the richness of our desktop productivity legacy. The SOA approach allows us to continue to leverage that desktop application value without having to rip out and replace. Which is costly and disruptive to existing business processes.
~ge~
Tags: cdf html5 w3c on 01-20-2008 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from weblogs.mozillazine.org
Standards often are made by insiders, established players, vendors with something to sell and so something to lose. Web standards bodies organized as pay-to-play consortia thus leave out developers and users, although vendors of course claim to represent everyone fully and fairly.
I've worked within such bodies and continue to try to make progress in them, but I've come to the conclusion that open standards need radically open standardization processes. They don't need too many cooks, of course; they need some great chefs who work well together as a small group. Beyond this, open standards need transparency. Transparency helps developers and other categories of "users" see what is going on, give corrective feedback early and often, and if necessary try errant vendors in the court of public opinion.
Brendan's comment about the open standards process and the control big vendors have over that process is exactly right. The standards contsortia are pay to play orgs controlled entirely by big vendors. OASIS and the OpenDocuemnt Technical Committee are not exceptions to this problematic and troublesome truth.
The First Law of the Internet is that Interoperability trumps everything - including innovation. The problem with vendor driven open standards is that innovation ontinually trumps interoperability. So much so that interop is pretty much an after thought - as is the case with ODF and OOXML!
The future of the Open Web will depend on open source communities banding together with governemnts and user groups to insist on the First Law of the Internet: Interoeprability. If they don't, vendors will succeed in creating slow moving web standards designed to service their product lines. Vendor product lines compete and are differentiated by innovative features. Interoeprability on the other hand is driven by sameness - the sharing of critical features. Driving innovation down into the interop layer is what the open standards process should be about. But as long as big vendors control that process, those innovations will reside at the higher level of product differentiation. A level tha tcontinues to break interoperability!
Tags: cdf corel odf ooxml opendocument w3c xhtml on 12-28-2007 -Cached -About Shared by:Gary Edwards
more from www.technewsworld.com
Corel's policy is to focus on what its customers want rather than get overly involved in any one document format, Larock explained. WordPerfect uses Corel's proprietary document format but makes that code available.
"We have filters built in to translate into more than 65 different file formats, including OOXML and ODF," he said. "That list included some legacy WordPerfect, AMIPro, PDF, multiple MS Word earlier formats and numerous graphic file formats."
Maintaining filters for legacy document formats is important. People have lots of older files in archive that they still want to access, said Larock.
The evolution of text on the Internet
along with the use of Web 2.0 applications is starting to have an impact. It is becoming a contest between a desktop presence and a Web-based format, according to Larock. He compared the situation to the transition from analog to digital formats in the telephone industry.
